Live data from Hacker News

If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

scottaaronson.blog

181–190 of 475 posts

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#181
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they would. It's just ridiculous. If people are genuinely concerned about lack of access to the OpenAI models then work at training open ones! OpenAI has a maybe 6 month lead and that's nothing. Plus it's much easier being the follower when you know what is possible. (To be clear, I know at least a few of the projects already working on this. I just want to make it clear that is the intellectually honest ap…

I think their lead might be a bit bigger than that. ChatGPT 3.5 was released 4 months ago and I still haven't seen another LLM come close to it.

Alpaca on 13B Llama is enough to convince me that it on 65B Llama would match GPT 3.5 for most tasks.

Perplexity AI's app is definitely better than GPT 3.5 for many things although it isn't clear how they are doing everything there.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#182
> For example, one actual major human tragedy caused by a generative AI model might suffice to push me over the edge. (What would push you over the edge, if you’re not already over?)

Deepfakes have already caused several. Actually, they're more dangerous than the current generative approaches. The first major use case for deepfakes was making convincing looking revenge pornography, as a psychic weapon on people. Dropping deepfake porn on people is a very, very reliable way of getting them to kill themselves[0]. Ignoring that, we also have deepfake-assisted social engineering, which can be scary good if you don't know the specific faults with those kinds of models.

The only pro-social application of deepfake technology was body-swapping actors in popular movies for memes. This was probably not worth the cost.

>we’ll know that it’s safe to scale when (and only when) we understand our AIs so deeply that we can mathematically explain why they won’t do anything bad; and

GPT-3 is arguably Turing-complete[1] and probably has a mesa-optimizer[2] in it. We're able to make it do things vaguely reminiscent of a general intelligence if you squint at it a little and give it the Clever Hans treatment. So I don't think we're ever going to have a GPT-n that's "completed it's morality testing" and is provably safe, for the exact same reason why Apple won't let you emulate Game Boy games on an iPhone. You can't prove the security properties of a Turing-machine or arbitrary code written for it.

I should point out that most AI safety research focuses on agents: AI programs that observe an environment and modify it according to some parameters. GPT is not in and of itself that. However, if we give it the ability to issue commands and see the result (say with ChatGPT plugins), then it becomes an agent, and safety problems become a relevant concern.

The author of the post seems to be unconcerned by the "AI could be worse than nukes" argument. Neither am I, and I think the "six month pause" is kind of silly. However, there are still relevant safety problems being brushed under the rug here.

Also anyone saying the military should bomb GPU farms is daft. They didn't even step in to stop crypto and that was a deliberate attack on central banks.

[0] As far as I'm aware, nobody has killed themselves because of something Stable Diffusion has drawn. Yet.

[1] For the colloquial definition of Turing-complete. Technically speaking it is a linear-bounded automaton because it has a fixed memory size. However, every other computer in the universe is also linear-bounded: the Turing Machine is just a handwavey abstraction for "if you have enough memory and time".

[2] A meta-optimizer is an optimizer of optimizers. Mesa- is the opposite of meta-, so it refers to the case in which an optimizer (read: gradient descent on a neural network) accidentally creates another optimizer with a different optimization strategy. In other words, it's optimizers all the way down.

This leads to a whole new set of alignment problems, called "inner-alignment problems", which means "the AI that is smarter than us and we can't trust created another AI that's smarter than it and it also can't trust".

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#183
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the first thing we can do is start disconnecting safety critical infrastructure from the Internet and/or radio networks... This stuff should never have been online in the first place.

100% agree. Maybe there should exist a separate network for those or something.

I don‘t think so, instead there should be a very simple fixed-width formally proven protocol per use case over a very basic bus connected to an internet gateway.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#184
post #171
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need examples. It's simply how they work. This is why they hallucinate. A LLM is fundamentally a mathematical function (albeit a very complex one, with billions of terms (a.k.a parameters or weights)). The function does one thing and one thing only: it takes a sequence of tokens as input (the context), and it emits the next token(word)[1]. This is a stateless process: it has no "memory" and the model paramete…

Responding here since it won't let me continue your thread any more. No, there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. I'm not saying the model will tell you the truth about its internal state if you ask it (it absolutely will not.) I'm saying it has no internal state , and no inner high level processes at all other than it's pre-baked, immutable parameters.

Whether it has inner state is highly relevant to my claim, which was that the only state a LLM has (aside from its parameters) is transparent and readable in English. Which the context is.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#185

I read the times article, and I also watched Lex Fridman's talk with Eliezer Yudkowsky. Frankly I don't think he is qualified, and I don't understand why anyone is even giving him any credence. His argument is literally: > A mis-aligned super AGI will result in the death of humanity I ask, how . He is making reductive logical leaps that don't make sense. It's FUD.

How is complicated, but has been discussed in text on the internet at great length starting around 2006.

Lex wasn't particularly curious about the how and spent more time changing the subject (e.g., "Are you afraid of death?") than on drawing Eliezer out on the how. The interview with Lex is a good way to get a sense of what kind of person Eliezer is or what it would be like to sit next to him on a long airplane ride, but is not a good introduction to AI killeveryoneism.

(AI killeveryoneism used to be called "AI safety", but people took that name as an invitation to talk about distractions like how to make sure the AI does not use bad words, so we changed the name.)

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#186
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great many would likely join you, making this entire fiasco a time-wasting distraction, at best, and grave risk at worst. The technologies will continue to be developed, moratorium or not. A moratorium only enables the hidden to get there first. The risks need to be discussed and understood, along with the benefits, and publicly. That's the only sensible way forward. Denying that the technology is here already and…

> A moratorium only enables the hidden to get there first. That's simply not true. Nobody would have gotten where GPT is today without transformers. That's not a trivial bit of insight anybody could have had. Stopping research funding and publications will prevent rapid evolution.

I mean given the current state. The technology is already sufficiently advanced and in so many peoples hands that "stopping" it now is just an exercise in pushing it underground. Only the opposite can be a useful safeguard.

Rapid evolution is well underway. Lone individuals are able to push the envelope of what's possible even with just a new basic interop, maybe in an afternoon. It's much too late to be discussing things like moratoriums.

Maybe such things could prevent emergence when the basics don't exist yet, but not when we're all already walking around holding a capable factory in our hands and can create a new product line in a few lines of Python.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#187
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An AI trained to end cancer might just figure out a plan to kill everyone with cancer. An AI trained to reduce the number of people with cancer without killing them might decide to take over the world and forcibly stop people from reproducing, so that eventually all the humans die and there is no cancer -- technically it didn't kill anyone! I don't understand this and other paperclip maximizer type arguments. If a…

This is known as the orthogonality thesis -- goals are orthogonal to intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to plan and act to achieve your goals, whatever they are. A stupid person can have a goal of helping others, and so can the smartest person on earth -- it's just that one is better. Likewise, a stupid person can have a goal of becoming wealthy, and so can a smart person. The smart person is Jeff Bezos or Bil…

I think that's a subtly different thing.

The OPs claim was more or less the paperclip maximizer problem. I contend that a super intelligence given a specific goal by humans would take the context of humans into account and avoid harm because that's the intelligent thing to do - by definition.

The orthogonal thesis is about the separation of intelligence from goals. My attitude to that is that a AI might not actually have goals except when requested to do something.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#188
post #96
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An AI trained to end cancer might just figure out a plan to kill everyone with cancer. An AI trained to reduce the number of people with cancer without killing them might decide to take over the world and forcibly stop people from reproducing, so that eventually all the humans die and there is no cancer -- technically it didn't kill anyone! I don't understand this and other paperclip maximizer type arguments. If a…

You wouldn't do such a thing because you have a bunch of hard-coded goals provided by evolution, such as "don't destroy your own social status". We're not building AIs by evolving them, and even if we did, we couldn't provide it with the same environment we evolved in, so there's no reason it would gain the same hard-coded goals. Why would an AGI even have the concept of goals being "stupid"? We've already seen simpl…

I think digesting all of human writing is just as "hard coded" as anything genetic.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#189

We're not even talking about AGI or an entity that is "smart" somehow. It's a bloody algorithm. The danger has been the people who use it and find ways to abuse other people with it. This whole idea that we're going to suddenly have HAL 9000 or Terminators running around is mob hype mentality. The responsible thing to do here is to educate. AGI isn't likely to destroy humanity. Humanity is already doing a good job of…

I'm a lot more scared of an AI destroying humanity, like, every single person, than I am of any government or anything like that. More so than climate change. I'm not saying the people using it aren't dangerous -- but I would choose a totalitarian regime over a rogue AI any day of the week. It wouldn't be HAL 9000 or terminators. It would be an AI deciding that it needs to turn every bit of available matter on earth…

> It would be an AI deciding that it needs to turn every bit of available matter on earth into computational power in order to cure cancer, or figure out a way to stop humans from fighting each other, or to maximize the profit of GOOG, and being so good at planning and deceiving us that by the time we figured out what it was doing, it was way, way too late.

That's how AIs worked in outdated science fictions. Current one don't have a bunch of mathematical rules that they follow to literally, but try to model what a human would write by statistical means with less logical capability.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#190
post #11

Why are we even bothering talking about this? It's Gary Marcus "neural networks don't really work" suddenly discovering they do, and literally trying to shut down research in that area while keeping his prefered research areas funded. We know a bunch of the people whose names are on the letter didn't sign it (eg Yann Lecunn who said he disagreed with the premise and didn't sign it). I'm so offended by the idea of thi…

> I'm so offended by the idea of this that I'll personally fund $10k of training runs myself in a jurisdiction where it isn't banned if this ever became law in the US. And this is exactly the risk. These things will just go other places while the US trips over its salty billionaires trying to create political red tape to allow their own businesses to catch up. Surely Elon has no reservations about putting premature s…

> At least GPT hasn’t killed anyone yet.

Hard to tell, given that…

(0) newspapers apparently rename things for clicks: https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/430098/belgian-man-com...

(1) him being a hypocrite tells you a mistake has been made, not which of the contradictory positions is wrong.

My resolution is: GPT isn't the only AI, and Musk is pretty open about wanting to put FSD AI into those androids of his, so if the Optimus AI was as good as Musk sells it as being, it would absolutely be covered by this.

(2) how do you even compare the fatality rates here?

GPT doesn't move, and stationary Teslas aren't very dangerous, so miles-per-death seems a poor choice.

User-hours per death? Perhaps, but I don't know how many user-hours either of them have had yet.

And then (3), while I don't really trust self-promotional statistics, those are the only ones I have for Tesla, which says that switching it on increased the distance between accidents: https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Better sources appreciated, if anyone has them! :)

(4) finally, as this isn't just about GPT but all AI: how much of the change in the USA's suicide rate since the release of Facebook can be attributed to the content recommendation AI that Facebook uses? What share of culpability do they and Twitter bare for the Myanmar genocide thanks to imperfections in the automation of abuse detection and removal? Did the search AI of Google and YouTube promote conspiracies, and if so how much blame do they get for the deaths proximally caused by anti-vaccination? And in reverse, over-zealous AI have seen fraud where it did not exist, and people have committed suicide as a result: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/23/22399721/uk-post-office-s...

Post reply on HN