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Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

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Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of Google's products were second, or later, to market. Google does not care.

Isn't it generally very hard to be first to market? And even if you are it's more likely that someone coming in later will take your lunch. Apple wasn't the first one to try to make a successful smartphone, but they had resources, know-how, and tried at a better time with fewer unknowns around.

Or were just willing to adapt when others didn’t. Blackberry mocked the touchscreen for years until finally coming around and their initial implementation was awful.

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#312
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make sense. For example, GPLv3 allows anyone to redistribute the software's source code if the license is intact: > You may convey verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice; keep intact all notices stating that this License and any non-permissive terms added in accor…

Uploading is granting GitHub a license separate from the gpl license. If you can't actually grant that separate license, you're misrepresenting your ownership and license to that code

I'd like to see that theory tested in court. Section D3 of the terms says:

> If you upload Content that already comes with a license granting GitHub the permissions we need to run our Service, no additional license is required.

https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t...

and section D4 does not mention any permissions that GPLv3 does not already cover. GitHub automatically recognizes when a repo is GPLv3-licensed, so it cannot claim ignorance of what GPLv3 is.

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And what even is the penalty of that TOS violation and how enforceable is it? I don't have an OpenAI account. I have never agreed to any TOS. I don't see what legal claim they would have to stop me from training an LLM on ShareGPT.

If Google were specifically going to ChatGPT to get its output and train off of it, they could be sued for breach of contract - and OpenAI would likely have a pretty good argument: - they specifically tried extracting and learning from our model when it says you can't in our TOS - this makes it easier for them to compete with us via the data they obtain in their breach of contract - more businesses and enterprises mi…

> If Google were specifically going to ChatGPT to get its output and train off of it

But (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think anyone anywhere is claiming that's what happened. The claim was just that Google looked into using existing chats that it scraped from another website.

Edit: realizing you're probably replying specifically to the question I asked, "and what even is the penalty of that TOS violation and how enforceable is it?" In which case, yeah, that's a decent clarification to add, sorry for pushing back on it.

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention it's embarrassing. Google playing second banana to OpenAI.

Google’s been second banana to openai for a few years now, right?

The funny part is that deepmind's tech (and some of Google Brain's research) seems to be as good as openAI's or better, but Google's unwillingness/inability to productionize these systems is keeping them back. It seems like the issue is only with the management, and I'll be looking forward to reading about Google's version of Fumbling the Future[0].

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Fumbling-Future-Invented-Personal-Com...

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the copyright board a promot is not anymore than any person commissioning a work from an artist, which does not provide copyright, and the lack of human authorship for the design decisions still stops it from being protected by copyright.

Copyright.gov says the copyright office has started an initiative to examine AI copyright issues. That makes me think even the copyright board is not confident of their answer.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/03/16/2023-05...

They released this guidance earlier this month. It isn't that difficult to understand.

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#316
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Creating a model from copyrighted works is likely sufficiently transformative to be non-infringing even if it is found to be a derivative work." Maybe, but one of the factors of fair use is whether it deprives the copyright owner of income or undermines a new or potential market for the copyrighted work. If ChatGPD gets so good at writing J.K. Rowling novels that it hurts the sales of the next J.K. Rowling book, tha…

But the model doesn't have any agency. GPT isn't spitting out novels in the style of J.K. Rowling and sending them to publishers - a human is. GPT being instructed to tell a Harry Potter story itself is no more infringing than a child asking a parent for a made up Harry Potter bed time story. They equally infringe and undermine new or potential markets for copyrighted work. The question is "what do you do with the ma…

This argument is weak. If we agree that the production is infringing, then selling a machine that produces infringing works on demand is also infringing to the rights of the author. For example, if I sell a karaoke machine that comes with pre-recorded famous melodies without the original vocals (thus, derived works), I definitely cannot claim "only the agency of the users matter". No, even the on-demand production itself is an act of infringement.

Regarding your fair use point:

> add something new, with a further purpose or different character, and do not substitute for the original use of the work.

This is a test that can be applied to the works produced, and I think that, by and large, it applies to most of them, they are sufficiently transformative to be seen as fair use, especially since they are produced and published, as you say, under the agency of a human user of the system.

But we're talking here about the system as a whole, not a certain production. The ChatGPT model database is not a creative work (other that its source code), it's a binary compressed representation of the works used to train it, for the purpose of on-demand production of works that mimicry, to a varying, and sometimes strikingly infringing degree, the originals. There is no question such a machine competes with the originals in the market place, there is no real question it is a derivative work of the originals, that fully supply its artistic features and without which the machine could not utter a single intelligible sentence.

Also, the "one word out of 1000" analogy defense does not apply, since a single isolated word is not a work of creation, while a certain shape, brush stroke or cromatic set are. AI does not create using disparate pixels of the originals, it uses entire creative features, more like publishing a book where each page or chapter is copied verbatim and adapted from other works, or if characters, plot devices and story structure are reused. These latter cases have long been recognized as plagiarism.

So the legal question seems to be if mass-scale algorithmic remixing and derivation by a non-creative competitor is fair use. That strikes me as far outside the intended spirit of fair use and the balance it seeks to achieve between author protection and beneficial social progress.

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes that training on the output of another language model somehow gives you the ability to improve your model and to catch up somehow

It does. In general this is known as teacher-student training or knowledge distillation. It works better if you have access to the activations of the model but you can work with just outputs as well.

Does it work even if you don't control the inputs?

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#318

Thankfully archive.org exists, otherwise it would not be possible to get good training data in a few years when the internet is flooded with AI content.

The entire internet has been flooded with AI / autogenerated SEO spam for years now.

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#319
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just so silly for someone working at OpenAI to complain about this. Who from OpenAI is complaining?

My understanding is that the Twitter thread author works at OpenAI. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

According to his bio, he works at Vercel. He made a hobby project called ShareGPT[0] and that's probably where the accusation came from.

[0] - https://sharegpt.com/

Re: Google denies training Bard on ChatGPT chats from ShareGPT

#320

Google accused Microsoft Bing of using them for page rankings a few years ago. Setup a sting to show that when you searched for something unique on Google using MS Explorer, shortly afterwards the same search result would start showing up on Bing. This was seen as deeply embarrassing for Microsoft at the time.

Embarrassing, maybe, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

It's not imitation though, which would be copying their method.
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