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GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

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Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#81

for every US HN commenter talking about their "awful experience" with Indian teams let me talk about my awesome professors from IIT who came to America to work in Math/CS education. Or about the great Indian people I met online working on open source projects on github. Or about the skilled Indian immigrants who work where I work. Or the immigrant Indian doctors who saved my family members life in the hospital.

Sadly, India's "body shop" tech sub-sector (aka WITCH [0]) has an outsize effect on the perception of India's professional sector as a whole. Working for (and with) these companies is truly a miserable experience. It's a shame that people make hasty generalization about entire countries and blame workers for the behavior of these companies.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27571707

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> make your high-cost employees much more productive with AI Might happen soon, might not. AI has so far proven astounding for problems to which solutions are robust to small perturbations -- natural language, visual art -- but code is different.

Disagree. The overwhelming amount of software being written is almost entirely plagiarizable from stack overflow or GitHub. It will need to be slightly reworked, but that’s it. The real trick is figuring out how to ask your copilot for the bite-sized pieces one at a time.

> The real trick is figuring out how to ask your copilot for the bite-sized pieces one at a time.

We agree on that. Breaking the problem into bite sized pieces is the really hard problem. I can't explain my codebase to the AI. I have to figure out what to change myself. If I can offload syntactical stuff to an AI, great, that'll save me 10% of my time. Nothing to sneeze at, but nothing that will make my job disappear either.

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#83
post #75
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's particularly tough for marginalized youths to get started and work their way out of the underclass. Yes, this is the point I always want to emphasize. Policies like this always favor those already inside (the existing workers being protected by tough-to-fire laws) at the expense of those looking inside from the outside (the newly-grads and members of marginalized groups trying to get started). I similarly disf…

> I similarly disfavor minimum wage laws I am trying to understand this more. Why would a minimum wage law be unfriendly to a specific class of workers? Doesn't that just establish a right for the worker and an obligation for the employer to meet. What about pay transparency rules for job postings (that are mandatory in some jurisdictions)? In principle, I feel they help the job seeker although corporations get away…

The other commenter already made the point that not all work has an economic value higher than the legally-mandated floor of wages, which I'll take as axiomatically true and won't explore further.

The more interesting follow-on point, however, is that people have to start somewhere, and effects compound over time. Someone fresh out of high school or college is, generally speaking, useless at any given job on day one. Most job training happens on the job, even for people with college degrees. A new employee is a double cost to the employer until they reach proficiency; they have to be paid wages, and they take time away from somebody else who has to train them.

And through that path someone learns not only the job-specific skill, but also the general skill of being a productive member of the workforce: discipline, time management, grit, people skills. Over time this learning compounds, and they move up in income.

The way that a minimum wage that is too high is unfriendly to the already-underserved is precisely because they miss out on that critical experience. Sure, it might seem exploitative at first glance if a local burger joint hires a kid right out of high school and pays them $5 an hour, and doubly so if the kid is from a disadvantaged class. But the fact is that they will learn from this experience (and crucially, more than just about flipping burgers) and level up and move on. The rich kid gets to skip this step and go right into a job that pays $30 an hour, because they have the unpaid internships and the social connections and everything else that makes them more prepared; that is, they have already leveled up to a degree.

Proponents of a higher minimum wage imply a picture where the people getting paid minimum or near-minimum wages are stuck there for life, perhaps for generations. Actual data shows otherwise; only a third of people born to parents in the bottom quintile of incomes remain in that same bottom quintile in their own adulthood. And on the other side, only a third of people born in the top quintile remain there. Under some analyses, the only group that stagnated were the beneficiaries of greatly increased government benefits borne of the Great Society programs in the 60s. Those people were disincentivized from working and therefore never up-skilled.

A higher minimum wage has a similar effect: it will necessarily mean fewer young people join the workforce earlier on in their lives, and again, because their experiences compound, will mean that over their lifetimes they will be worse off.

I have no strong feelings about salary transparency laws, but am generally in favor.

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a broad generalization. I have worked with a few great and plenty of terrible Indian devs.

Anecdotally, from at least 2005 to 2015, every single India-based team had negative productivity output across the 5 SoCal companies I worked for, as an engineer. At 4 of the companies, the India teams were liquidated during my tenure. In 2 cases, one or two top performers were cherry picked out and brought to the US on work visas. These individuals each became US citizens, in time. They are awesome and they are stil…

Anecdotally, the us teams I have worked with are surprisingly bureaucratic and super bloated. The reason they were NOT liquidated was because they controlled the purse strings.

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#85
post #80

Punishment for a leaked private key?

I don’t see India mentioned in the postmortem. Would a random offshore team even have/need access to this ssh private key?

If a private key made it into a repo, it was probably everywhere.

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#86
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve spent long enough in the industry that I am relatively comfortable with many of the accents, I would love a class to exist that teaches non-Indians the dialect.

Right, everyone else needs to adjust to the Indian dialect of English.

Need or else, your career may improve if you can work with a wider group of talented people.

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#87
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Towns? You mean Buenos Aires. Conveniently, real estate transactions are done in USD.

Plus all of my colleagues in Argentina are happy to be paid in USD. So much easier for them to deal with.

Might not want to call them out on that. Last I heard, working in Argentina and getting paid in USD was illegal.

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#88
post #3

Between the timezones, language and dialect differences, and cultural differences, offshoring can be more trouble than it's worth.

The impact of the timezone difference was greatly underestimated by people. During my prior experience working closely with a team in India, I realized that I would never take up a job that demands it again. Although the engineers were competent, the +10 hour time difference caused inconvenience to everyone for sure. Either someone had to work very early or very late... everyday

Re: GitHub India's entire Engineering team is fired

#89
post #77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I similarly disfavor minimum wage laws I am trying to understand this more. Why would a minimum wage law be unfriendly to a specific class of workers? Doesn't that just establish a right for the worker and an obligation for the employer to meet. What about pay transparency rules for job postings (that are mandatory in some jurisdictions)? In principle, I feel they help the job seeker although corporations get away…

Some workers aren't worth paying minimum wage. They stay unemployed because no employer will pay more than they're worth. If we set the minimum wage at $15 / hour then what do we do with people whose labor is only worth $14 / hour? Transparency rules are fine and don't inhibit employment.

I appreciate the counter viewpoint; Thank you. I had not considered that.

> Some workers aren't worth paying minimum wage

I don't necessarily agree with the statement above. If a worker is not qualified for the job, don't hire them. Just as we would not hire someone who is say at 2x the compensation budget for a role.

I do agree with the issue of what we do as a society with people who don't meet that threshold minimum wage and are unemployed. That number is never going to be zero, but it is not 30-40% either (US context). So, it probably requires targeted policy solutions like unemployment benefits, universal basic income, social safety net etc.,

Your solution seems to be doing away with the minimum wage to provide them employability at some wage level. That is interesting. I feel that has the unintended consequence of suppressing wages for the larger percentage of employable new workforce (recent grads etc.,)

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