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Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

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Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#181

Post by lo_zamoyski »

It is worth noting that for much of history, for most people, people did "work from home". Children spent a great deal of time around their parents. The education of children is primarily the responsibility of the parent, and in years past, that is precisely what happened. Furthermore, one's family, extended family, or neighbors/community (depending on your situation) would flexibly step in to care for children in the absence of their parents or when parents were busy with something else. Today, a good deal more falls in the lap of parents without the communal and multi-generational support that used to exist.

So WFH gestures in the direction of a return to the historical norm of family-centered life. There is nothing normal about a career-centered life where your family becomes secondary. And because WFH also reduces the need to move, it has the potential to reduce the fragmentation of communities and families. It will be interesting to watch the broader effects of WFH on the broader economy, the culture, and the formation of community life.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#182

Post by laserlight »

swsieber wrote: post #174
dahfizz wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of Americans commute less than 30 minutes. How is something the majority of people have "extreme privilege"? The idea of a 2 hour commute each way to be gone from 7am to 7pm is a complete fantasy.

You got me curious about the stats. For one way commute time the mean is 27.6 minutes, and only 22% spend more than 30 minutes. I'd be more interested in median commute time though. https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic... Edit: this has an interactive map of bad commute hotspots! https://www.ridester.com/average-us-commute/

27.6 minutes sounds absurdly low to me. Getting ready at home, getting in the car, parking it at the destination, and finally walking to my desk takes at least 10 minutes for me. Discounting the overhead doesn't make sense.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#183

Post by ThorsBane »

This proves remote work is quality software engineering methodology. It results in higher quality, more throughput, and increased investment in Family. I approve.

This means any org or management layer that enforce hybrid or in-office on the people who move code, system design, abstractions, product knowledge work, ux work...are contra Family. Those orgs need to collapse and those managers should be fired.

This will happen no matter what - the orgs and managers that lean into the disruption and make the most of the new world will survive and increase their scale and scope. The ones who hold on to top-down force and methods of mind-control and mind-enslavement (Agile, Scrum) will no longer exist for long - any value those processes have will be automated into tools that respect engineers.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#184

Post by em-bee »

em-bee wrote: post #113
Thlom wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids should go to child care so both mother and father are free to work.

if they are old enough maybe. less than 3 years they should be at home with their parents. in austria/germany kindergarten and school traditionally is half day. afternoon childcare is considered special and very expensive, if you can even find a place. finding a space in kindergarten can be a problem too. many parents want to send their children to childcare but they simply can't

it turns out that in germany, since 2013 parents have a legal right for a space for daycare for their children from the age of 1 year. that dramatically changes the availability and cost of such spaces.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#185

Post by Viliam1234 »

prewett wrote: post #166
_ktx2 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, it did take optimizing house location/commute, etc To spell the quiet part out loud here, what you're describing is an extreme privilege in a world where homes near tech campuses often go for $1M+. New fathers aren't going to have a down payment for even $600k+. Tech at this point starts as a rich persons game which is why so many tech workers intermarry with other wealthy people. It takes two or a trust fund…

Using "privilege", with its connotation of inherited wealth, and applying it to a profession that pays well above average but is open to anyone--the opposite of inherited wealth--is kind of rhetorically dishonest. Disingenuous at best. It's also out of context, which was that two tech parents were discussing having time for family. There's a strong correlation between expensive homes near tech campuses and tech jobs…

> a profession that pays well above average but is open to anyone--the opposite of inherited wealth

Technically, you need to inherit the genes that allow you to do this kind of profession successfully.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#186

Post by inconceivable »

_ktx2 wrote: post #141
alistairSH wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had spent the week out commuting between the hours of 7am to 7pm FWIW, I commuted through most of my son's childhood. I still made it home for those things you list. But, it did take optimizing house location/commute, etc. I certainly wasn't gone 7am-7pm. Even with 60 min of driving and 60 min for lunch, that's an 10 hour day.

> But, it did take optimizing house location/commute, etc To spell the quiet part out loud here, what you're describing is an extreme privilege in a world where homes near tech campuses often go for $1M+. New fathers aren't going to have a down payment for even $600k+. Tech at this point starts as a rich persons game which is why so many tech workers intermarry with other wealthy people. It takes two or a trust fund…

this comment is posted on literally every discussion about money and work on HN. there's always That Guy who points out "won't you think of the people who aren't as x, y, z. don't you know you're privileged! how dare you talk about this!"... this vapid, reflexive concern trolling is tiring and repetitive. so someone will feel bad by reading about your very privileged existence and the fact that you have a job and you're in the market for a house close to your work? is that really the bar we're expected to adhere to? is this actually offensive? insensitive? rude?

we don't need to be reminded there are poor people out there. no shit, really? we see it every day. some of us started out that way, some of us are the children of millionaires. so what? i'm not going to self-police what i talk about on the internet just because poor people exist in this world. i don't feel envy or animosity towards the rich or the poor. some poor people get rich, some rich people lose their damn marbles and go to the poor house, dragging entire families down with them - let me guess, you feel no sympathy towards that type of poor person, right? they deserved it, right? either way, life goes on.

it's like stating that water is wet or the sky is blue and then chastising people about not mentioning the water and sky when they talk about their new smart phone or laptop. absolutely no value add. it's a non-sequitur.

who does this actually help, by pointing this out? nobody is going to accidentally buy a million dollar house with their well compensated corporate job if they're not by definition winning/privileged. we're not selling subprime mortgages here.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#187

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

rhino369 wrote: post #165
txsoftwaredev wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in a home no where near that expensive in DFW and commuted 45-60 mins each way when my kids were young. Plenty of places you can work in tech and not own a million dollar house. Even still so today.

45-60 minutes each way is a pretty bad commute.

30-60 minute each way is pretty much standard comute where I live in Europe

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#188

Post by pradn »

fatnoah wrote: post #162
jossclimb wrote: post #12

I have been remote for 11 years now and have two children 9 and 12. I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had spent the week out commuting between the hours of 7am to 7pm, we would have lost out on so much bonding time with their daddy being an integral part of their life. I managed to be highly productive, build a career, yet be there for bath times, tucking into bed, school plays / sports days, nursing…

> I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had spent the week out commuting between the hours of 7am to 7pm I can, because I lived that life. My wife and I moved from 1 bedroom apartment in the city to a house in a suburb ("only" 10 miles away) and the only time during the week I was able to spend much time with my child was 7am-8:30am before school. By the time I got home, he was going to bed. Generally, on…

Not having to take care of a home sounds great. I can't imagine the Sisyphean task of mowing a lawn every weekend. At least raking leaves can be a peaceful thing - lour mowers can't be peaceful!

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#189

Post by fatnoah »

okeuro49 wrote: post #175
fatnoah wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had spent the week out commuting between the hours of 7am to 7pm I can, because I lived that life. My wife and I moved from 1 bedroom apartment in the city to a house in a suburb ("only" 10 miles away) and the only time during the week I was able to spend much time with my child was 7am-8:30am before school. By the time I got home, he was going to bed. Generally, on…

> suburb ("only" 10 miles away) This is odd to me. This is not a long distance. Is there zero transport infrastructure where you live?

> This is odd to me. This is not a long distance. Is there zero transport infrastructure where you live?

There is, in fact I lived a 5 minute walk from a bus stop and worked near a subway stop. My commute was:

  1)  5 minute walking    
  2) 15 minutes bus to end of subway line  
  3) 25 minutes subway to transfer
  4) 10 minutes subway to stop near the office 
  5)  5 minutes walk
Driving with no traffic would be close to 20 minutes, but 45-75+ minutes during rush hour. Taking transit ends up being reasonably time competitive, but far more enjoyable.

Re: Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation

#190

Post by munificent »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #168
fatnoah wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had spent the week out commuting between the hours of 7am to 7pm I can, because I lived that life. My wife and I moved from 1 bedroom apartment in the city to a house in a suburb ("only" 10 miles away) and the only time during the week I was able to spend much time with my child was 7am-8:30am before school. By the time I got home, he was going to bed. Generally, on…

Now imagine if you had been able to have it all, the only cost being management not being able to see your bag of mostly carbon water physically respirate. I love having a house and yard, and never having to pollute the environment to shift my bag of carbon water to do the same work worse somewhere less adapted to my being. There will come a time when passions die about RTO and companies stop paying for real estate s…

> Then children will have their parents again.

In most developed countries, parents already spend more time with their kids than at any point in the past fifty years:

https://ourworldindata.org/parents-time-with-kids

(What they've sacrificed, at least in the US, seems to largely be non-work social connections and group participation.)

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