The age of average • Hacker News Board

Re: The age of average

#431

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 12:41 AM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #237

crazygringo wrote: post #123

What the article describes is correct, but I don't think the words "average" or "homogeneity" or "conformity" are the right terms, as they seem to carry negative connotations here. Rather, the right word is "convergence". The point is, people like certain things aesthetically. It used to be that artists and designers were still trying to figure out what looks good, and trying all the things. But now we've tried so ma…

On the contrary! There is a key difference going from "convergence" to "conformity": circular reasoning. People who need to sell the thing they invent, tell themselves that "convergence" is the best way there. Customers like familiar traits. So they design for intentional convergence, and that is the essence of conformity. 99.99999% of keyboards are the same physical layout. This layout is a standard that conforms to…

> There is a key difference going from "convergence" to "conformity": circular reasoning.

> People who need to sell the thing they invent, tell themselves that "convergence" is the best way there. Customers like familiar traits. So they design for intentional convergence, and that is the essence of conformity.

This is completely tautological. You're just saying "it's not convergence, it's conformity" and your only argument is "because I say it is".

Re: The age of average

#432

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 12:43 AM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #317

epups wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare say that 99.99999% of keyboard users expect a similar layout. Sure, it converged out of conformity and familiarity, but so what? This is part of the added value to me, I can learn to type in a particular layout and I'm good to go in any other. This is a crucial part of functionality in fact.

You are precisely the consumer demand that drives conformity here. You are real! That doesn't change any of the other things I just said: in fact, it exasperates the issue, because it isn't wrong to target your familiarity as a reliable selling point. The problem is that it's also a good thing to try create new designs. I have a keyboard that you would hate to use. That's how I feel about the traditional design you p…

> We can both be served by the market, but only if designers have enough confidence to do so.

That's a claim worth making, but it needs more evidence. It just isn't self-evident that this is true.

Re: The age of average

#433

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 12:46 AM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #77

sidewndr46 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 over 1 is the result of regulations of various kinds converging resulting in economic pressures dictating that building format. Also unless land is just atrociously expensive, the marginal cost of adding floors doesn't go down. In fact it really goes up at some point. I've still never actually worked out how sewage works in supertall buildings.

Freshwater, sewage, fire codes, elevators, foundations, load-bearing structures, HVAC all get more difficult as you add more floors (beyond some small number around 4 where it's all pretty trivial). Another advantage 5-over-1s have (which the NYT article also mentions) is that they are cheap and easy to build. Very tolerant to cheap building materials, lots of prefabricated parts, lots of contractors who are familiar…

> lots of contractors who are familiar with how to build them

that's a bit circular, no?

Re: The age of average

#434

Post by harry8 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 12:56 AM UTC

Last5Digits wrote: post #135

I'm always wary of articles like this. The feeling of things becoming mediocre strongly resonates with me, but I am aware that there could be a great many different biases at play. When I was younger, entertainment media felt magical. The complexity and depth of experiences I could get from even a second-rate story was immense. I remember staying up late at night to process the last movie I watched, or feeling that r…

Don't overlook diminishing returns when examining this.

The first time you try skydiving it is likely to be quite the exhilaration. If you grew up doing with your parents and have jumped hundreds of times it's not going to be the same thing. But if you realised that and "discovered" reading novels for pleasure at your age that might give you an incredible buzz, your first of that kind.

No story is going to match a loved family member opening a book at your bedside when you were a child and intoning "Once upon a time..." Yet we chase that feeling forever, which is fine. I know grown adults who still immerse themselves in a childhood artistic experience from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. It seems it captured the imagination of vastly fewer who were adults in 1978 and that doesn't mean they were curmudgeonly.

Re: The age of average

#435

Post by ilyt » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:08 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #123

What the article describes is correct, but I don't think the words "average" or "homogeneity" or "conformity" are the right terms, as they seem to carry negative connotations here. Rather, the right word is "convergence". The point is, people like certain things aesthetically. It used to be that artists and designers were still trying to figure out what looks good, and trying all the things. But now we've tried so ma…

It also falls into traps of statistics. The individual will have its own bunch of likes or dislike and overall the set of them will be pretty unique.

But when you add indiscriminate averaging, well, what article describes happen. What, did they think they find one nation that hates the outdoors enough that after averaging it wouldn't come on top ?

They essentially made design by committee in 11 countries and were surprise when result was mediocre

And the complaint about cars for example, frankly most people use them as an appliance and most people are not in position to throw away some MPG or convenience just because they want the lines on outside to be different. Frankly article does that part really badly as the car interiors differ quite a bit and that is what you will be looking at when you're using it for most of the time.

And you usually need to pay both money and convenience for "pretty" in cars. If you need to fit a family and also want it off the ground more, it will be bulbous SUV no matter what designer does with it, and it will look similar if you pick color that's worst at showing the difference and outright remove some stylistic elements like rim choice

I think the amount of sameness have more to do with mediocre designers copying the good ones rather than some kind of convergence of mediocrity. I think perfectly fine designs that appeal to wider audience just need to shy away from things most people dislike, not try to design by commitee what average person does, or see what some designs got famous for then try to copy it coz that's the fashion now.

Re: The age of average

#436

Post by chii » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:12 AM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #372

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, things have converged because lots of people with no taste[1] just ho-hummed along with the zeitgest. You buy what you can afford. Whether that be a shotgun shack with second-hand traipings or a McMansion with IKEA furniture. AirBNB's are optimizing for cheap, easy to clean and maintain, but still providing the minimum expected features. If you want variety, go to actual B&Bs. The big mistake the artists in the…

"You buy what you can afford. " The problem is, there is "almost everybody can afford this", and there is "completely bespoke". We have eliminated the middle ground.

> We have eliminated the middle ground.

what would be such a middle ground?

The bespoke stuff is expensive, since there's literally only 1 customer. Think mega yachts.

The 'almost everybody can afford this' is because it's sold to everybody, and thus economies of scale _allows_ it to be affordable.

The old 'middle ground', to me, is a pre-industrial idea that locally sourced craftsman and materials can be used to serve just the local region. It no longer exists because it _can_ no longer exist (except as a sort of cottage industry, or artisanal industry which is hugely inefficient and thus barely anyone buys such things).

Re: The age of average

#437

Post by friend_and_foe » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:14 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #123

What the article describes is correct, but I don't think the words "average" or "homogeneity" or "conformity" are the right terms, as they seem to carry negative connotations here. Rather, the right word is "convergence". The point is, people like certain things aesthetically. It used to be that artists and designers were still trying to figure out what looks good, and trying all the things. But now we've tried so ma…

Meh, I don't buy it. Fashion is invisible except in hindsight. It's all just fashion, it's hairspray and shoulder pads and bell bottoms. Nobody actually wants to live in a house that looks like a laboratory, it's just the fad of our time. And it sells, so with the current environment of investment first home second, greater-fool-in-a-few-years home buying strategy, it makes sense to reinforce it.

It's the same thing with everything else. What it comes down to is risk aversion.

"Convergence" is just "copycatting". Aside from functional convergence, aesthetic convergence is just fashions, fads and copycats. We will all look back on this "optimize everything by removing the soul" as sterile, unimaginative and uninspiring.

Re: The age of average

#438

Post by WillPostForFood » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:25 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #436

groby_b wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You buy what you can afford. " The problem is, there is "almost everybody can afford this", and there is "completely bespoke". We have eliminated the middle ground.

> We have eliminated the middle ground. what would be such a middle ground? The bespoke stuff is expensive, since there's literally only 1 customer. Think mega yachts. The 'almost everybody can afford this' is because it's sold to everybody, and thus economies of scale _allows_ it to be affordable. The old 'middle ground', to me, is a pre-industrial idea that locally sourced craftsman and materials can be used to ser…

In furniture, for example, the old middle ground (20th century) was hundreds of factories, churning out regional furniture that was shipped to cities that had multiple showrooms with reputations based on their curation. This wasn't as expensive as bespoke furniture, but much more than Ikea, or ChinaDirect.

In the US North Carolina, Illinois, New York, Michigan, Massachusetts, all had furniture industries. I don't know if that was better, but it was definitely different, much more diverse, less affordable, but higher quality. Clothes worked pretty similarly.

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Furniture_Company

Within a brief time, the company employed 32 people and manufactured tables, chairs, and a bedroom set. The solid-oak bedroom set sold for nine dollars and included a bed, dresser, and washstand.

Shut down in 1993

Re: The age of average

#439

Post by titzer » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:31 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #427

titzer wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> embrace the fact that things change and will always change. Living in a European city for a few years got me thinking about what the sources of changes are. Everything, and I mean everything requires maintenance, or it will crumble into dust. That maintenance is like a running cost. For (what we consider today to be) high-value jewels of the past, we pay this cost, because we like having these amazing things--like…

Just to be a devil's advocate: yes, construction in the US generally doesn't last as long as in the "old world". But on the other hand, look at how hard it is to take a beautiful 17th century stone building and make it as energy efficient as modern construction. Same with just about every other internal quality-of-life feature - the old building wins on feng shui and other ineffable valuations, but fails in terms of…

In Austria, new homes often have the outer look of older, traditional houses, but can be incredibly energy efficient (e.g. 40cm walls with really good interior insulation), high efficient heat pumps, hot-water heating, etc.

Re: The age of average

#440

Post by danaris » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:41 AM UTC

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #374

nicenewtemp84 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd colors actually have the best resale value on the used market. A yellow Porsche is very hard to sell new. Very few are made and sold in yellow because dealers don't spec them that way. 10 years later, if you try to sell a black Porsche, you have 72 others competing with you. If you try to sell a yellow Porsche, the buyer will fly from across the US to buy it from you.

>Very few are made and sold in yellow because dealers don't spec them that way Dealers aren't speccing them yellow because they don't sell as well as other colors. If people were lining up for yellow Porsches, dealers would absolutely be ordering more yellow Porsches. Odd colors may be priced differently at the top of the market for used cars (I don't know), but that's just not true for the typical car used buyer.

The problem isn't that fewer unusual colors are made.

The problem is that no unusual colors are made in almost all car models.

There are a very small handful of models that have a few particular colors beyond the basic black/white/red/silver/dark blue options, but otherwise manufacturers have decided that because fewer people want yellow (or bright blue, or pink, or orange, or magenta), no one gets those colors. Ever.