Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets • Hacker News Board

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#11

Post by Retric » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 1:47 PM UTC

vuln wrote: post #5

detuur wrote: post #2

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to t…

> It's obvious that at most in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I wonder what effect that’s had on a humans immune system. I’d imagine eating spoiled meat containing bacteria, etc was giving their immune system a run for its money until a tolerance was built.

The major issue isn’t the bacteria but their byproducts. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism

This is why you can’t render rotten meat safe by simply cooking it. That said, people still age meat. Small birds for will get left for 4-9 days in a cool space before being butchered etc. https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasan...

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#12

Post by 1MachineElf » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

As an aside, most industrial meat is exposed either intentionally or unintentionally to lactobacillus strains. Working in kitchens I've had the opportunity to taste spoiling meat that had high amounts of it. When prepared right it is actually quite good. Taste can be similar to dry-aged steak, but juicer and more flavorful. I've never gotten sick, but it certainly seems like a risk, however tasty it may be.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#13

Post by wincy » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

jrootabega wrote: post #4

My gut refuses to believe it, but my brain understands that this is probably a lot like cheese -- blue cheese in particular. If you've only had fresh milk, letting it curdle and mold before eating it would probably be unthinkable. Same for fresh cabbage vs. kimchi or sauerkraut.

If you ever get a chance to go to a really nice steakhouse, and eat a 45-day or 60-day dry aged steak, do so. It’s one of the funkiest most delicious things I’ve ever eaten, like a combo of the best blue cheese and the best steak I’ve ever had.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#14

Post by giraffe_lady » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #11

vuln wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's obvious that at most in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I wonder what effect that’s had on a humans immune system. I’d imagine eating spoiled meat containing bacteria, etc was giving their immune system a run for its money until a tolerance was built.

The major issue isn’t the bacteria but their byproducts. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism This is why you can’t render rotten meat safe by simply cooking it. That said, people still age meat. Small birds for will get left for 4-9 days in a cool space before being butchered etc. https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasan...

Yep other than a couple notable exceptions like salmonella, this is the norm for food poisoning. It's intoxication from metabolic byproducts, not infection. Remains one of the biggest lay misunderstandings of food safety though.

"Just cook it out" plus "your nose can tell" (it can't, spoilage microbes aren't usually illness microbes) are false beliefs that still get people killed.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#15

Post by leereeves » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

detuur wrote: post #2

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to t…

> Dogs don't seem to mind [spoiled meat]

I've recently seen proof of that. A dead horse was left on a trail I frequently hike, and I saw dogs eating it a week later.

I don't even want to imagine how awful that meat was after sitting in the sun for a week.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#16

Post by Joker_vD » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:09 PM UTC

detuur wrote: post #2

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to t…

Not to mention diet of the peoples living in tundra that includes such wonderful stuff as e.g. igunaq.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#17

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #15

detuur wrote: post #2

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to t…

> Dogs don't seem to mind [spoiled meat] I've recently seen proof of that. A dead horse was left on a trail I frequently hike, and I saw dogs eating it a week later. I don't even want to imagine how awful that meat was after sitting in the sun for a week.

That said, all the pets I've had throw up way more than I do. I think we're ignoring the very real possibility that ancient people were constantly living with some level of gastrointestinal problems.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#18

Post by giraffe_lady » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

1MachineElf wrote: post #12

As an aside, most industrial meat is exposed either intentionally or unintentionally to lactobacillus strains. Working in kitchens I've had the opportunity to taste spoiling meat that had high amounts of it. When prepared right it is actually quite good. Taste can be similar to dry-aged steak, but juicer and more flavorful. I've never gotten sick, but it certainly seems like a risk, however tasty it may be.

Yeah you can definitely lacto ferment meat, it's a major flavor component of the european dry sausages. Doing it safely isn't hard, but a lot of the nuances of that technique are towards making it actually taste good. It's very easy to lose control of water activity and get out of control rancid elements, or get air ingress and grow aerobic bacterias that clearly taste like rot, or too much oxidation of the fat, or the wrong mold.

Definitely pretty advanced level fermentation stuff, more to control and more serious consequences than making kimchi or something. Naem and other SE asian sour sausages are probably the most approachable entry point if you want to give it a swing though.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#19

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #13

jrootabega wrote: post #4

My gut refuses to believe it, but my brain understands that this is probably a lot like cheese -- blue cheese in particular. If you've only had fresh milk, letting it curdle and mold before eating it would probably be unthinkable. Same for fresh cabbage vs. kimchi or sauerkraut.

If you ever get a chance to go to a really nice steakhouse, and eat a 45-day or 60-day dry aged steak, do so. It’s one of the funkiest most delicious things I’ve ever eaten, like a combo of the best blue cheese and the best steak I’ve ever had.

The trick with a dry aged steak is that you don't eat the bits that were directly exposed to the air. The outer layer of the beef protects the inner from the intrusion of all the bacteria and spoilage that makes you sick and that's discarded and you cook the inner stuff that's had time to change but not go bad.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#20

Post by Connor_Creegan1 » Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 2:24 PM UTC

detuur wrote: post #2

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to t…

>It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage.

I would agree, both in terms of actual immunity and taste response, although generally-speaking eating rotten meat (especially when well-sourced) is not nearly as risky as common wisdom would make it out to be. Many folks in the deeper circles of online carnivoria dabble in "high meat" (fermented rotten meat, a method of preparing meat learned from Inuit peoples who would feed it to their dogs) and swear by it, even if the taste can be unbearable to the uninitiated.