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The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

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Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#171

Post by revelio »

mnky9800n wrote: post #162
revelio wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> what is the natural explanation that you are providing for the increase in global mean temperatures since industrialisation? Since industrialization i.e. the 20th century? It's quite possible that there actually hasn't been any increase if you look at the original thermometer readings and take the trend over the period since the start of industrialization. That's why the record is full of cases where climatologist…

if you don't believe temperature data go look at pictures of glaciers that go back 100+ years https://nsidc.org/data/glacier_photo/ what makes them melt? must be photoshop of the pictures by climatologists right? so maybe it's photoshop, but then where does all the sea ice go? probably climatologists lying about it right? are the satellites even in space? maybe they are a lie just like the moon landing. https://www.n…

"you linked to an article by james hansen then said you can't find what he is talking about because climatologists covered it up. james hansen is one of the most famous climate scientists ever having originally presented this to congress as a world crisis during his tenure at NASA."

I know, the article I linked to is on the NASA website. That's exactly what I'm saying - guys like Hansen were distressed by the lack of warming despite their predictions to the contrary and then changed the data to create it, mostly by cooling the past. It's visible when comparing graphs of the same time period from older and newer documents. That one is an older document. You seem to think there's a contradiction here but I don't see it.

Glaciers, how do they work? Dunno, let's ask the archaeologists who know that in the past it was massively warmer where glaciers are found today:

http://www.museumgolling.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/9_Sch...

Oaks (Quercus) at an altitude of 1,450 metres around 2,000 years ago also indicate a climate approximately 4 to 7 °C warmer than today.

But that was in the Roman era so it can't have been CO2 making that warmth. Also very important: 4-7 degrees hotter but no runaway climate self-destruction.

Then you go off on some jibber-jabber about conspiracy theories. That's what always happens when people can't accept the truth on this topic, they try to shoot the messenger. All you need for this outcome to occur is the mundane reality that without predictions of doom nobody would care about climatology. It doesn't matter if the researchers are American or European or Chinese. Their income and prestige depends on claiming that they (a) understand the climate and (b) know how to explain all changes and (c) that those changes are controllable with sufficiently big actions. Unfortunately none of that seems to be correct.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#172

Post by incone123 »

vintermann wrote: post #119
incone123 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think the solution is to blanket ban corporate speech." How will you ban corporate shills?

It shouldn't be all that hard, really. We ban prostitution (whether we should or not is another question). It's the same principle: you can do the thing as much as you like, but you can't pay people for it. It doesn't have to be strict. It doesn't have to be two sided. For simplicity, maybe you want to only ban the paying side. Say there can't be a post in your budget that says "influence politicians for favourable l…

Prostitution is an example of a ban that's almost totally ineffective, but your points about LLCs seem reasonable to this non expert.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#173

Post by dragonwriter »

incone123 wrote: post #172
vintermann wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't be all that hard, really. We ban prostitution (whether we should or not is another question). It's the same principle: you can do the thing as much as you like, but you can't pay people for it. It doesn't have to be strict. It doesn't have to be two sided. For simplicity, maybe you want to only ban the paying side. Say there can't be a post in your budget that says "influence politicians for favourable l…

Prostitution is an example of a ban that's almost totally ineffective, but your points about LLCs seem reasonable to this non expert.

It’s effective at its purpose, its purpose just isn’t stopping the conduct banned.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#174

Post by sprucevoid »

Tade0 wrote: post #169
sprucevoid wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're not about to run out of land We already did, in the sense that we'd need more earths to let everyone on earth eat the kind of diets prevalent in rich countries today. https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets Current enourmous land use by meat industries has many negative effects. We should individually switch to plant based (if you haven't already) and in public policy rapidly remove all s…

Or just give up beef and mutton - it's responsible for most of the problem. No need to get all radical - you won't gain much support for such ideas. Beef consumption already peaked in rich countries anyway.

The problem with only reducing meat from cows and sheep is that other meat sources are still worse than plant based with regard to climate change and we're at a juncture where climate policy need to shift into full gear on all fronts. Not a time for half measures. Meat from chicken is also likely even worse than beef in terms of pandemic risk and perhaps also antibiotics resistance risk. In addition to that chicken meat industries cause much more animal suffering than all other land based animal meat industries combined which I think is a very strong argument to phase out chicken meat production - that industry wouldn't last a week if the type of animal protection regulation people in general think already exists for it would in fact be enacted, applied and enforced.

The idea that negative externalities should be priced in is the standard view in economics. I think most people, if provided the reasoning for it, would accept such pricing in when it comes to such serious global problems as climate change, antibiotics resistance, pandemic risk and air and water pollution.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#175

Post by felurx »

dragonwriter wrote: post #173
incone123 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is an example of a ban that's almost totally ineffective, but your points about LLCs seem reasonable to this non expert.

It’s effective at its purpose, its purpose just isn’t stopping the conduct banned.

What is the purpose, then?

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#176

Post by zardo »

doctor_eval wrote: post #153
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.businessinsider.in/sustainability/news/cop27-att... I'm not sure about that. I mean.. even if you look at the cars they're driving (again, those are rich people, they can easily afford anything electric): https://www.schwarzeneggerclimateinitiative.com/ And then he drivers an SUV even larger than him: https://www.tmz.com/2022/01/21/arnold-schwarzenegger-car-acc... Ursula: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world…

While I think it’s a positive thing for people in positions of power to speak up for the environment, I do not personally consider any of these people environmentalists. I think there is a huge difference between supporting a cause and living it. Nevertheless, after rereading your original comment, I fully agree with you. These world leaders should be leading. It is disgusting and hypocritical that they flew 400 priv…

It's not as though everyone going to the COP conference wants to lead on the environment, many of them are going for things like... preventing the recommendation of a plant based diet.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#177

Post by dragonwriter »

felurx wrote: post #175
dragonwriter wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s effective at its purpose, its purpose just isn’t stopping the conduct banned.

What is the purpose, then?

Marginalizing sex workers.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#178

Post by waihtis »

sprucevoid wrote: post #99
waihtis wrote: post #9

The discussion around plants, meat and dairy need to become much more nuanced. Let's take dairy as an example - has a great effect in boosting mTORC1 activity which causes better growth in children. Now, a non-insignificant set of people who have bought into zealous veganry are raising children who will be physically more fragile just because they've been marketed with the idea that dairy == bad. On the other hand, o…

> feel free to correct any errors in my claims What you say about mTORC1 is not supported by the leading academic researcher organizations in the field of nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the preventio…

Your linked paper doesn't reference mTORC1 a single time. Moreover, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics has faced numerous criticisms about it's close ties to corporate groups such as McDonald's, Coca-Cola, Mars, and others.* It is fully within their interest to state "vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements" (a direct quote from your linked paper) as it supports the business models of their corporate partners.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Diete...

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#179

Post by Tade0 »

sprucevoid wrote: post #174
Tade0 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just give up beef and mutton - it's responsible for most of the problem. No need to get all radical - you won't gain much support for such ideas. Beef consumption already peaked in rich countries anyway.

The problem with only reducing meat from cows and sheep is that other meat sources are still worse than plant based with regard to climate change and we're at a juncture where climate policy need to shift into full gear on all fronts. Not a time for half measures. Meat from chicken is also likely even worse than beef in terms of pandemic risk and perhaps also antibiotics resistance risk. In addition to that chicken m…

> Not a time for half measures.

Now is exactly the time for half measures - radical options proposed in the past largely failed due to their simplistic view of human nature.

We're actually getting there with electricity. Renewables - the very definition of a half-measure - are being deployed at a much higher rate than nuclear, which on the face of it is the ideal solution - but only in a world where megaprojects are delivered on time and within budget. Ironically China and Russia are doing great here - I suppose the secret ingredient is totalitarianism.

> I think most people, if provided the reasoning for it, would accept such pricing in when it comes to such serious global problems as climate change

That's a very charitable assumption.

There are many people who can't even begin to imagine, much less understand the issue at hand.

Going vegan because climate change and animal suffering is going to be a hard sell.

Re: The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet

#180

Post by waihtis »

mokkol wrote: post #137
imeron wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The brain contains approximately 20% of whole body cholesterol, you can't get away with not eating fats. Your brain needs fats.

Who says fats are only in meat and dairy? They are in many plant based sources that contain large amounts of fats. Just to name a couple: Nuts, seeds, fruits(avocado, olives, coconut)

all ecologically incredibly viable to be produced and transported across the world in gigantic container ships
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