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Apple passwords deserve an app

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Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#261

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

waboremo wrote: post #225
Karellen wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple Passwords on Windows is a good example [...] the experience is entirely unlike what you get on Mac If you were a Windows user, why would you want an app that acts like a Mac app? Surely the benefit of having a dedicated Windows app is that the experience should be like other Windows apps.

You're not really thinking about it as a "mac app", but rather "the service". You expect it to act like the service you use on other platforms with all the features you rely on. If I'm using Spotify, I don't think "oh this doesn't use windows navigation component from winUI", I immediately know where the genre categories are because I've already used it on android or linux and expect it to be there. I know exactly ho…

> If I'm using Spotify, I don't think "oh this doesn't use windows navigation component from winUI"

We're either very different people or we have different use cases :) It immediately feels jarring to me to be using macOS and suddenly presented with a non-native UI. But I only ever use macOS on the desktop, so I don't have this cross-platform issue. What I find strange is, I would have thought that was the 99% common case — it seems strange to me to optimise for individuals using multiple OSes rather than multiple apps on one OS.

> Design development becomes this duplicated burden

That sounds like an OS flaw if true. Of course, I accept that some design will be necessary, even with the finest SDKs available to humanity, but it should be so burdensome that going non-native is seen as the solution.

> Even on iOS or mac, people regularly rely on apps that only vaguely interpret their native components.

You're totally right. Every now and again, I say to myself "I really must use Safari for the 'more native' experience", but I always come running straight back to Chrome again.

> The situation is even worse on windows

This was one of the things I liked best about macOS when I first migrated — everything was so consistent, things didn't visually clash, etc. I still get the impression it's better on macOS, but heck, it's definitely not as good as it used to be.

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#262

Post by balderdash »

lxgr wrote: post #246
great_psy wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah ok, yes the shoulder surfing is definitely a problem. Hard to mitigate somebody looking over your shoulder, this is the case with most password managers, but I understand why this is a more likely scenario.

In a semi-safe situation (e.g. on busy public transit or in a crowded place with people behind me), I do sometimes unlock my password manager using Face ID to access a website, but I'd never enter my passphrase if the biometric unlock fails. If somebody watches me enter my passcode and then rips the device out of my hands and runs off with it (assuming the password manager is not open), they now have access to most o…

If you reset/create an alternate appearance for faceid does that force a manual login for the services that use it? Because your device passcode lets you change all the faceid stuff… too lazy to mess around with it myself

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#263

Post by imoverclocked »

musicale wrote: post #237
klodolph wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, this is super fucking weird. You'd think this would be connected in some fashion to "keychain", but nope. Other browsers used to be able to use it. I do think it’s a really thorny issue—“allow this application to access all saved passwords?” is a pretty damn scary permission to include. Up there with the “allow this application to control your computer” permission that is used for accessibility apps (which ap…

> allow this application to access all saved passwords I'd like to see finer granularity, perhaps multiple web password vaults and a mechanism to allow certain browsers to use certain vaults. It might also be nice to specify which passwords could be accessed with which kind of authentication. Unfortunately the current system password dialog is easily spoofable - it really looks like a questionable javascript popup.

What would that look like? Do you expect a prompt for every website you visit (Would you like to allow permission for Firefox/Chrome/whatever to view/store your password for "abcd.example.com"?) Would the permission be tied to the name of the app or the hash of the app? How do you securely identify the browser? Signed apps? Signed via a developer key -- trust the developer so that you can use Chrome as well as Chrome Beta?

The above is not a critique but certainly a list of things that lead to the possibility of a repeat of the infamous Windows popup for every single action you want to do out of the box. This leads to either decision fatigue or a pre-programmed "yes, just do it" response from the vast majority of users.

I personally think it should be an all-or-nothing type of allowance for this reason. Maybe the better way would be tracking access to passwords in Keychain. ie: Chrome+Safari+Firefox have all accessed your credentials for google.com but only Safari has seen your iCloud credentials and only Chrome has seen your HN credentials.

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#264

Post by judge2020 »

ttul wrote: post #170
aquanext wrote: post #166

My best guess is that Apple won't do it because their plan is to phase out passwords entirely. That's what that whole FIDO Alliance ( https://fidoalliance.org ) is all about. And 1Password is part of that too: https://blog.1password.com/1password-is-joining-the-fido-all... I think that ultimately a password tool needs to be available on multiple platforms, like 1Password. Having it just be on Apple stuff just isn't g…

1Password knows that it will take centuries for passwords to disappear even if a password-less future is already here.

1Password has embraced it: https://blog.1password.com/passkeys-are-coming-to-1password/

While I'm not sure how they've integrated it so far, I imagine browsers will either implement a plugin API for extensions to handle passkeys, or 1p can override the webauthn api and fallback to the browser when a website is authenticating.

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#265

Post by noizejoy »

thom wrote: post #223

Gimme something to make family passwords easy (eliminate passwords!) Enable Apple ID logins for kids. Throw your weight around to move safety settings into some sort of open web standard. I’ve got 1Password but the daily pain of managing a family of users with various accounts is just too much right now and I would pay almost any amount of money to have a simple solution that I never had to think about.

Have you seen this?

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/10/passk...

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#266

Post by ngai_aku »

jtbayly wrote: post #260
ellisv wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that is one of the big issues with keychain. You can share keychain items with people but it is awkward.

Are you referring to Airdrop password and passkey sharing?[1] That’s the only way I can find other than manual copy/paste. Also, I very much doubt if I later change the password I shared via Airdrop that it will update on the other person’s device… which is half the point. [1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/share-passkeys-passwo...

Yeah, that’s how I share with my wife. I don’t anticipate that it would stay in sync if I updated it, but I can’t say that I’ve tried. Do you regularly rotate passwords?

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#267

Post by otterley »

imoverclocked wrote: post #263
musicale wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allow this application to access all saved passwords I'd like to see finer granularity, perhaps multiple web password vaults and a mechanism to allow certain browsers to use certain vaults. It might also be nice to specify which passwords could be accessed with which kind of authentication. Unfortunately the current system password dialog is easily spoofable - it really looks like a questionable javascript popup.

What would that look like? Do you expect a prompt for every website you visit (Would you like to allow permission for Firefox/Chrome/whatever to view/store your password for "abcd.example.com"?) Would the permission be tied to the name of the app or the hash of the app? How do you securely identify the browser? Signed apps? Signed via a developer key -- trust the developer so that you can use Chrome as well as Chrome…

It's not unheard of - iOS already provides granular permission capabilities for photos. You don't have to give all-or-nothing permission to apps to access photos anymore; you can now choose precisely which photos the app has access to.

I'm looking forward to iOS doing the same for contacts; there's no reason why WhatsApp/Telegram/etc need access to my entire address book if I just want to call Steve.

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#268

Post by vbezhenar »

I tried to use Apple passwords.

1. It really hates storing anything but website passwords. I have servers with ssh login/passwords. I have bank cards with cvv and pins. I have phones with pins. WiFi passwords. And other things not fitting to website/username/password.

2. Not enough fields. I'm ascetic when it comes to storing passwords, but it doesn't even have "notes" field.

So experience is subpar. It's possible to emulate some things, but in the end I decided to go with StrongBox. It's not ideal, I don't like UI, but it has all the functions I need. I also like KeePassium, but it's missing sync and mac app.

I know that Apple KeyChain has secure notes, but those are not accessible on iPhone, AFAIK.

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#269

Post by lmm »

waboremo wrote: post #215
porcoda wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been the story of Apple apps outside MacOS forever: they appear to always do the absolute minimum to claim support, and you end up with a super clunky windows app that is terrible. I doubt they’d do much better using electron: I think their development model is that if it isn’t on one of their platforms, they pump out a minimum-effort, low quality app. I’d guess that electron ones would be just as clunky, ex…

That hasn't really been true. Apple supported iTunes and Safari which were great options on Windows. Not just "I'm already an Apple fan so I have to use it", but actively deciding to use them. The root of the problem for Apple is that they cannot get away with doing what they used to in the past, they already have a plethora of platforms within their own umbrella to support, adding Windows native to the mix seems to…

> Apple supported iTunes and Safari which were great options on Windows. Not just "I'm already an Apple fan so I have to use it", but actively deciding to use them.

No they weren't. They were notoriously awful. Apple resorted to bundling Safari with QuickTime to try to get you to use it but everyone still hated it.

Re: Apple passwords deserve an app

#270

Post by tehnub »

waboremo wrote: post #225
Karellen wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple Passwords on Windows is a good example [...] the experience is entirely unlike what you get on Mac If you were a Windows user, why would you want an app that acts like a Mac app? Surely the benefit of having a dedicated Windows app is that the experience should be like other Windows apps.

You're not really thinking about it as a "mac app", but rather "the service". You expect it to act like the service you use on other platforms with all the features you rely on. If I'm using Spotify, I don't think "oh this doesn't use windows navigation component from winUI", I immediately know where the genre categories are because I've already used it on android or linux and expect it to be there. I know exactly ho…

Not that I disagree with you, but have you seen the new Windows app for Apple Music? It definitely feels Windows 11-ey, with the animations you'd expect. A notable departure from the Mac design, in favor of Windows design, is the placement of the back button at the top left corner of the window, instead of slightly to the right of the top left on Mac.
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