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The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

mullvad.net

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Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#371
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. This usually blocks incumbents from changing the rules as they wish. Yes of course natural rights don't really exist, but legal rights enforcing some of them are about as real as money.

> No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. Democracy and legalism are orthogonal concepts, though both tend to be (rhetorically, if not always as much practically) ideals of liberal government.

I don't follow. Are you saying that subscribing to the notion that democratic societies have certain rights protected by law is legalism?

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#372

Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" "Given that political corruption is rife in European countries, with great detriments to the healthy function of government, all politicians in positions where they may be engaging in corrupt behavior must submit to 24-7 audio and video surveillance, which will be piped over public platforms for crowdsourcing of corruption detection. All personal communic…

That's a start. Governments need to be 100% transparent in all things. Government officials should have nothing to hide. All meetings are open, all documents are accessible to all, all communications are recorded and open. Convert the NSA into an agency which watches government 24x7. Any government official that is found to hide/obscure information from the public gets three strike after which they are out. For life.

Workers who actually deal with confidential/personal information on citizens are the ones with the privilege to work without such monitoring.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If H. Clinton vs D. Trump or D. Trump vs J. Biden are the only choice for the most powerful politic job in the world .. I think they are really not the-best-of-the-best

This is a better argument for the American public making in general poor choices and political parties giving them the kind of people they are apt to vote for rather than paying insufficient salaries.

"Tail wagging the dog" argument.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have thought for some years now that any country wanting to implement some kind of restrictions or surveillance should start with politicians and authorities first. With some select authorities being exempt from this due to national security. For example, if a country wants to implement the installation of state-owned anti-harassment "spyware" on their citizens phones, then this would first apply to politicians and…

If thought of something similar but comprehensive and far reaching, as follows: Any law voted yes by a politician would have: A 6mo cool off period, and in that interim periodthe following would apply: the law in question would be Tripled (3x) and both ways (I.e. retroactive and future) to the elected officials, his immediate parents, sons, and siblings, as soon as the law is passed. So if they pass a tax increase, t…

This feels just like punishing governments and their families for doing their jobs. We already have elections and law enforcement, thats all we need to "punish" corrupt officials. What we lack to make elections effective is more information available to the public about what they do and why they do it. More accountability and transparency, not punishment for their children if they want to tax big corps. The threat of punishment is never the best incentive to get stuff done.

We should also start to judge them based on outcomes rather than pointless metrics like GDP. How much did poverty decrease during your governments? How about crime? Life expectancy? And so on.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#376
An effective way of countering such proposals would be to suggest an alternative mechanism for children safety.

If anyone comes up with such a solution, he will achieve two goods:

    - protect children
    - remove a motive for surveilence
Let's brainstorm?

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statement A is wrong because the person who said it is stupid. Why are they stupid? Because they said statement A. Using circular logic to refute someone's point isn't too smart either.

Hatred and bigotry are wielded by the weak, angry, stupid, and scared. If your position is congruent with the parent comment, I know exactly what you are. I have no reason to debate small humans. "Using circular logic to refute someone's point isn't too smart either." Also, straw man. I chose "disregard" intentionally. Disregard is not synonymous with refute.

Calling people you dislike “stupid” and “low intelligence” is indicative of bigoted attitudes.[0] While I'm in favour of reclaiming some meaning from the word “stupid”,[1] what you're doing here is not that. If you care about this sort of thing (which you seem to), you might want to reconsider how you go about it.

> > Using circular logic

It is best for your criticisms of things to be founded in truth, where possible. The first and last resort is the truth. It's a good habit to get into. There were plenty of other things you could have said, including:

> No, it's actually quite relevant.

You needn't worry about the truth justifying bigotry, in case that's the issue: while it's theoretically possible for a given piece of bigotry to have a basis in fact, reality seems to have some rather strong opinions on the matter! :-) If bigoted rhetoric had a habit of being correct, I think I would've found out by now. And if it were true, you would expect to see certain kinds of bigotry popping up in multiple places independently; rather than having traceable provenance, either as adaptions of prior bigotry, or as traced back to a historical figure with a strong and documented motivation for having people believe it.

That's not to say you need to put much effort into responding. But if you feel like putting that little effort in, it's best not to respond at all.[2]

[0]: https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/stupid-is-an-able...

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20110824041258/http://www.stupid... (see especially page 24)

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#378
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. Democracy and legalism are orthogonal concepts, though both tend to be (rhetorically, if not always as much practically) ideals of liberal government.

I don't follow. Are you saying that subscribing to the notion that democratic societies have certain rights protected by law is legalism?

I'm saying that “democracy” and “a society governed by laws and not just the present mood of whoever is in charge” are different (and, indeed, somewhat opposed—which is why early liberal theorists have a lot negative to say about “democracy”—things).

The particular blend where each limits the other that has come to define liberal democratic government is not the same as the broader concept of “democracy”.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#379

Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" "Given that political corruption is rife in European countries, with great detriments to the healthy function of government, all politicians in positions where they may be engaging in corrupt behavior must submit to 24-7 audio and video surveillance, which will be piped over public platforms for crowdsourcing of corruption detection. All personal communic…

This would be delightful. Being a politician should be a curse that the dedicated bear for the good of humanity, not cushy job and badge of pride.

As it was in pre-agricultural tribal chiefdoms, where the most esteemed and high-ranking individuals were those who contributed the most hard work to the tribe. Although chieftains enjoyed certain privileges, it pales in comparison to the opulence in modern politics. And at least their status was genuinely earned.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#380

Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" "Given that political corruption is rife in European countries, with great detriments to the healthy function of government, all politicians in positions where they may be engaging in corrupt behavior must submit to 24-7 audio and video surveillance, which will be piped over public platforms for crowdsourcing of corruption detection. All personal communic…

All of this would be fixed, and more, if we brought back Athenian style ostracism by public vote!

It would also make banishing political enemies far more effective.
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