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The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

mullvad.net

291–300 of 425 posts

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why draw the boundary there ? Men are a problem because of the society that lets them do what they want. Society doesn't treat trans women like men – and, largely, it does treat trans men like men. Isn't it dangerous to have trans men – many of whom will have testosterone running through their systems – in vulnerable women's spaces? Treating someone who seems like a woman, acts like a woman, is at risk from the g…

> Isn't it dangerous to have trans men – many of whom will have testosterone running through their systems – in vulnerable women's spaces? To be fair to the OP, I don't think there exists a history of abuse of females from trans men, which strengthens their allegation that the underlying sex might be an important factor to consider in these scenarios. The sex hormones alone maybe just aren't a factor. It's likely not…

> It's likely not safe to place trans women into male prisons either though, so I think there ought to another axis than just male/female along which we can segregate, such as violent/non-violent criminal history/tendencies.

Male-on-male violence is a problem for the male prison estate to solve within its walls. It doesn't make any sense to put women at increased risk of male violence to protect men from male violence. Women don't exist as some sort of violence shield to protect men from each other.

Men's prisons already have safeguards in place for vulnerable male prisoners, such as paedophiles, ex-police officers, ex-gang members and so on - putting them on separate wings of the prison, moving them to a different category of male prison (which is in practice similar to your suggestion of violent/non-violent separation). If men who call themselves women are at elevated risk from other men, the same safeguards can be applied to them. There is no reason whatsoever to house them in a women's prison.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#292

Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" "Given that political corruption is rife in European countries, with great detriments to the healthy function of government, all politicians in positions where they may be engaging in corrupt behavior must submit to 24-7 audio and video surveillance, which will be piped over public platforms for crowdsourcing of corruption detection. All personal communic…

This would be delightful. Being a politician should be a curse that the dedicated bear for the good of humanity, not cushy job and badge of pride.

Be careful what you ask for. There's no good reason that public service should be a "curse".

Humans are not angels, and we should not build systems that hold out some unrealistic expectation that they are.

Too often politicians are viewed as "saviors of the people" only shortly before they become "corrupt villains".

If we want to attract competent public minded people, we need to do a lot of deep thinking and system design to get there.

One good place to start is to get rid of this idea that every citizen's input is equally informed, sane, reasonable, actionable, legal, or thoughtful.

In a democracy, every person hopefully is afforded certain rights, such as due process and free speech, but this does not mean what you say is "free from consequences". The corollary is that not all ideas have to be given equal consideration. Some people say batshit crazy things sometimes, and frankly, these kinds of comments make life hell for many public servants. School boards come to mind.

Speaking, personally, I would like to be a public servant, in some regard (again), but I don't think we have realistic processes in place to really gather thoughtful feedback from the public. Until we do, public servants have to deal with a lot of informed nonsense.

I think software developers and UX people might not realize how skilled and motivated we are at building systems that actually work. I'm not saying that we build the right thing all the time. But so many government processes are fundamentally broken in terms of information processing. I'm not saying that they are broken by e.g. the tropes like "lazy people in government". I'm saying that the systems are (anti) designed (or evolved) in such a way that they're so painful that driven people get driven out.

If you think of a government as a way of processing citizen input in a way that is consistent with budget constraints and laws, it seems that many government agencies are not built using the principles that so many of us take for granted: system design, failure analysis, testing. This isn't just government problem, of course ... it is characteristic of large organizations of all kinds.

Democracy does not function well when too many people are simultaneously uninformed and yelling. This crowds out informed people trying to have a discussion.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your commentary is representative of low intelligence. Stupid is a qualifying factor for disregard.

Statement A is wrong because the person who said it is stupid. Why are they stupid? Because they said statement A. Using circular logic to refute someone's point isn't too smart either.

Hatred and bigotry are wielded by the weak, angry, stupid, and scared.

If your position is congruent with the parent comment, I know exactly what you are. I have no reason to debate small humans.

"Using circular logic to refute someone's point isn't too smart either."

Also, straw man. I chose "disregard" intentionally. Disregard is not synonymous with refute.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#294
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why do you think 'whataboutism' is a bad thing? It is comparison. Comparison is a fine tool for reasoning about policy. Not the end of the conversation, but something to consider. 2. The corruption of EU politicians is a major concern. If they think so little of privacy that they are willing to vote for laws like this, then they should certainly have to defend why they get any privacy at all. Corruption in governm…

In the US whataboutism is used to justify current crimes because in the past someone else did not get charged. It is a way to dismiss current crimes made by 'my side' because 'whatabout' that time 'your side' got off. It ends up reducing what can be criticized to the lowest common denominator, because you can't criticize anybody if anybody had every done it before.

"Precedent" is actually pretty fundamental to tons of legal systems. Because yes, it is important to call out hypocrisy. The people most concerned about whataboutisms nowadays are usually just using it as a way to completely avoid self retrospection and shield themself from what they are accusing others of. Yes, sometimes it is a non sensical argument (when you bring up something completely unrelated), but it is a very very overused online buzzword now.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#296
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Singapore System - their ministers are the highest paid in the world and it (apparently) makes a difference.

Singapore remains an authoritarian state, not a democracy. It allowed for massive progress in a difficult political climate but it does so at the cost of a good amount of political freedoms. That might be fine, but not in all cultures. I also challenge the notion that higher pay leads to less corruption. If so, then why are Denmark, Finland, New Zealand and Norway ranked higher in the corruption perception index[1],…

Crazy that you've been downvoted for this. The single ruling party of Singapore for the past 70 years, the People's Action Party, is overtly fascist. But I guess people are eager to overlook that because they like the results? Seems like a barely warmed over reformulation of 'they make the trains run on time.'

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a democratic system and would be easily recognized as such if it were implemented anywhere other than Europe. Parliament approving what the Commission does is of no use for repealing laws. The President is not elected by the Parliament. They experimented with that in the Juncker era, now it's back to being controlled (in theory) by the Council. The Parliament was given a "vote" that consisted of a list of op…

> They could literally vote for von der Leyen or not vote at all. that's how confidence votes work on most parliamentary republics.

I think a key difference is that in parliamentary republics, we usually now how the candidate (that the parliement votes on) has been chosen: it's usually by winning the elections as the head of the party with the most parliement seats. In this case, the process is completely opaque. I would say that it would be pretty weird if people say, here in Canada, voted for their MPs (good!) but then said MPs could only choose between an arbitrary list of candidates to be Prime Minister, chosen in a private meeting with 0 explanations.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#298
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" I'm probably in the minority on HN, but I think this is a good thing. It should be a matter of course, in a democratic society. Free speech doesn't live solely in digital communication (universally owned by some company) any more than it does in the classified ads in a newspaper.

It would be world changing, the complete abolition of all privacy. Little drones that followed everybody around, everywhere, broadcasting and storing every thing everybody does, or says, everywhere they go, and what they do. No. I do not recommend it. But the thought experiment is interesting.

The thought experiment has been done at novel length by Stephen Baxter: The Light of Other Days, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Light_of_Other_Days

In the novel it is extremely disruptive, but perhaps that is what is needed.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#299

Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" "Given that political corruption is rife in European countries, with great detriments to the healthy function of government, all politicians in positions where they may be engaging in corrupt behavior must submit to 24-7 audio and video surveillance, which will be piped over public platforms for crowdsourcing of corruption detection. All personal communic…

I have thought for some years now that any country wanting to implement some kind of restrictions or surveillance should start with politicians and authorities first. With some select authorities being exempt from this due to national security.

For example, if a country wants to implement the installation of state-owned anti-harassment "spyware" on their citizens phones, then this would first apply to politicians and those who work for the government, like anyone employed in a city hall or the traffic authority (normal citizens working there) or the like. This would run for 5 years, while citizens have the right to attempt to hack these systems without repercussions, in order to ensure that the security is up to the highest standards.

If after those 5 years the politicians and government employees are ok with it, if no major security concerns exist and the benefit has shown to be an obvious one, then it could be up for debate to implement this new technology.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lauren Boebert is secretly a total hottie. But I really wanna see Mitch McConnell shake what he got.

I know that HN isn't supposed to be for jokes, but legit, I assume that a naked Mitch McConnell looks like the nudist alien scammers from futurama. https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Sprunjer?file=Srunger.png

Or Dana Carvey trying to get into the Turtle Club.
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