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The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

mullvad.net

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Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#211

Post by gpderetta »

revelio wrote: post #208
gpderetta wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is not easy, but if it feasible for questionable reasons as in the UK case, certainly it will be more feasible in case of existential threats.

That's not how it works, at all. History should make this clear! By the time a regime reaches "existential threat" level it's too late. You're already far gone, any and all political opposition has been driven underground and the regime has loyalists in place in all institutions and positions of power. There is no way to organize any resistance because attempts to do so are crushed immediately, the press is controlle…

Mate, if you think the propaganda is only on one side, I don't know what to tell you.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#212

Post by revelio »

Hamuko wrote: post #192
suddenclarity wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence isn't the only punishment.

What other punishments does EU have at its disposal?

For example the UK was threatened at various points with having its electricity supply be cut off, having its planes be banned from overflying Europe, having Spain seize UK territory like Gibraltar, and the EU did impose major financial sanctions against its key industries. The EU also likes to rope in US Democrat Presidents to threaten or suspend cooperation with the UK in various ways, if it doesn't do what the EU wants.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#213

Post by zirgs »

revelio wrote: post #187
zirgs wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could reintroduce their own currency after leaving. Montenegro is using the Euro despite not being part of the EU or Eurozone. They can switch to other currency if they want to.

As part of leaving you'd be cut off from the ECB and that connection is required for the banking system to operate.

But Montenegro's banking system works. They aren't part of the ECB.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#214

Post by dover »

defrost wrote: post #177
dover wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll add: the current fuss about "protecting women's spaces" is pointless > rather than just appealing to hypothetical situations These aren't hypothetical situations. In some jurisdictions, prisoners are housed based on their self-declared "gender identity". So men who declare themselves as women are being incarcerated in the female prison estate. Women inmates have been raped, sexually assaulted, and even impregn…

> These aren't hypothetical situations. In some jurisdictions, ... It would be very interesting to see the actual official statistics on this, alongside the data on the number of women prisoners raped and impregnated by male guards. My suspicion is that the former numbers are over exagerated in importance and the later numbers are sharply underr reported .. but I'd still be interested in your best link to back up you…

> women prisoners raped and impregnated by male guards

This is why in the UK, women's prisons have a policy where at least 50% of prison officers must be female, and only female officers are allowed to conduct intimate searches where needed, to mitigate against the risk of sexual abuse by males.

That there is an existing, mitigated risk of male sexual predation from prison staff, does not justify further increasing this risk to female inmates by locking them up 24/7 with men, just because these men call themselves women.

We have sex-segregated prisons for good reason, this was the result of very well documented evidence, from prison reformers of the 19th century, of the harm and abuse of woman that is enabled by mixed-sex prisons.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#216

Post by pmlnr »

teekert wrote: post #209
pmlnr wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how: by stopping you from installing the software needed, which is the part that worries me.

How are they going to stop me from installing software? Even if they force "app stores" into compliance, I've lived in a world without them. I can always git clone from-ipfs, make, make install. Or you know, install some Flatpack from some secret repo or matrix group. Or find/distribute some software using BitTorrent over TOR. Do Encryption tools/apps now have the same status as botnet control software packages: Only…

I'm with you, honestly, and yes, I also know how to circumvent a lot of things.

> And if it does happen, society will be very different.

Indeed, but I barely recognise our society from 20 years ago when having a palmtop made you a weirdo.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#217

Post by fanagra32 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #156
fanagra32 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics already suffers heavily from not getting the best-of-the-best. Making it even less attractive to become a politician is unlikely to improve upon that. In the totality of all politicians out there that you have an opinion about, which fraction of them do you like, in terms of thinking they are the right person for the job? Do you think this fraction would improve with that opt-in scenario implemented?

"Politics already suffers heavily from not getting the best-of-the-best" It is repeated often, but is this really true? Number 1 trait of a politician should be honesty and integrity in my opinion - and I don't think that you can increase that factor, just with throwing more money on them. Then you maybe just get more smart people, who are in it for the money and use their smarts and cunning to extract even more mone…

> It is repeated often, but is this really true?

If I look around at (a) politicians and (b) people I respect for traits needed in politicians, then those sets are not fully but largely disjoint.

> Number 1 trait of a politician should be honesty and integrity in my opinion

There are other necessary traits though. Empathy. Diplomacy. The ability to compromise. Keeping an eye on the big picture. Current processes don't always select for those traits and there are tons of BS-ers and populists out there while I see people with the desirable traits outside politics and not having any desire to get involved. Putting a camera over their head 24/7 is not going to improve that.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#218

Post by sidlls »

atlgator wrote: post #71
worik wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be world changing, the complete abolition of all privacy. Little drones that followed everybody around, everywhere, broadcasting and storing every thing everybody does, or says, everywhere they go, and what they do. No. I do not recommend it. But the thought experiment is interesting.

It's an opt-in scenario. People aren't forced to be politicians.

Politicians aren't isolated: the people they interact with would be impacted, too.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#219

Post by kelipso »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #204
roenxi wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why do you think 'whataboutism' is a bad thing? It is comparison. Comparison is a fine tool for reasoning about policy. Not the end of the conversation, but something to consider. 2. The corruption of EU politicians is a major concern. If they think so little of privacy that they are willing to vote for laws like this, then they should certainly have to defend why they get any privacy at all. Corruption in governm…

In the US whataboutism is used to justify current crimes because in the past someone else did not get charged. It is a way to dismiss current crimes made by 'my side' because 'whatabout' that time 'your side' got off. It ends up reducing what can be criticized to the lowest common denominator, because you can't criticize anybody if anybody had every done it before.

Accusations of whataboutism are basically used to stop conversations because the accuser does not like where the conversation is going.

Re: The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies

#220

Post by revelio »

zirgs wrote: post #213
revelio wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As part of leaving you'd be cut off from the ECB and that connection is required for the banking system to operate.

But Montenegro's banking system works. They aren't part of the ECB.

They never formally joined the Eurozone to begin with, they just allow the Euro to circulate and accept it for payment. It's not even legal tender there, in theory. The integration issues are more to do with how the banking systems of formally Eurozone integrated countries are wired up to the ECB and how countries come to rely on it for "liquidity" (money printing to pay for expensive large government).

Also note that the EU don't like Montenegro using the Euro and tolerate it only because it's tiny/doesn't matter.

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