Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw • Hacker News Board

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#61

Post by EGreg » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:27 AM UTC

lbwtaylor wrote: post #54

EGreg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I originally wrote this to ask if anyone else is bothered by the hypocrisy. If you're going to downvote this, I would definitely appreciate if you at least write why you disagree. Also if you are bothered by the hypocrisy, I'd appreciate if you said so. Either way, am I just being crazy? I know I'm not the only one, but I also want to understand where I'm wrong. "What appears to be the position of the Muzychuks…

I don't understand - what do you find confusing about Ukrainian players not wanting to play with those playing under their invader's flag? What hypocrisy have those Ukrainian players shown? If the US invaded Ukraine they may we'll have decided not to play American chess players. As for your note that there are multiple "actors" in the Ukrainian conflict, many people don't buy that. They don't think Russia has any leg…

I do not mean the Ukrainian players are showing hypocrisy.

I mean the organizations and events that ban Russian players, Russian vodkas, Russian mustard, Tchaikovsky's music, and so on.

It's a relatively minor things, all things considered ... like a larger version of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/szfl96/when_the_so...

But it's part of the larger hypocrisy that prevents us as a species from holding our politicians to account.

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#62

Post by SamPatt » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:27 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #27

foolfoolz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

men and women are not equal

In the context of a discussion about chess, they are.

I've played chess since I was young, have taught many people to play chess, have played in company tournaments, play whoever I can when I travel, and there's just no question that the vast, overwhelming majority of women don't enjoy playing chess.

I can't even speak to a possible difference in gender capability because I've never known a single woman who enjoyed it enough to do anything more than learn how the pieces move.

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#63

Post by EGreg » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:29 AM UTC

stametseater wrote: post #59

Aeolun wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is that we’re doing the invading in those instances. This is the opposite, where our literal backyard is being invaded. They’d have to be stomped on for no other reason than to prevent them doing it again. I’m also of the opinion that the US and allies probably had more valid reasons to invade any of the countries they did in the past 25 years than Russia had to invade Ukraine. I feel like the…

Emancipation of women wasn't the reason Afghanistan was invaded. It kind of became a sort of disingenuous revisionist justification somewhere along the line, but the stated justification at the time was the Taliban were harboring al-Qaeda, particularly bin Laden. The whole of it seems quite farcical to me, particularly in retrospect, but I wouldn't equivocate it with Russia's invasion of Ukraine because I don't think…

It's actually worse than that.

If we cared about emancipation of girls from Muslim Radicals then we could just do NOTHING because Afghanistan had a revolution and a secular government back in the 80s. Which called USSR for help because muslim radicals didn't like the reforms. Instead, we funded the Mujahideen (who were, ahem, Muslim radicals) and told them to carry on a holy war against their government and the commies. We gave them stinger missiles. USA and Saudis also trained foreign fighters "Afghan Arabs" to go and wreak havoc. In the years that followed, up to 2 million Afghan CIVILIANS DIED. And the country was then ravaged by war, and became home to Al Qaieda the very organization that attacked us.

But it's actually worse than that. In 2001 we went over there ourselves because we wanted Osama Bin Laden.

The Taliban told the USA: "just provide proof that Osama was behind 9/11", and let's have a court case in a neutral third country. (You know, like they do in The Hague etc.)

USA and Bush admin said: "We know he's guilty. We will give you no proof!"

Then in December of 2001 (that same year!) the Taliban said "we unconditionally surrender! We will disband! All we ask is for you to let us live our lives out in dignity."

The USA said in their great wisdom: "NOPE"

Then we fought for 20 years the very group we ceded Afghanistan to last year. And to think, all we had to do is ACCEPT THEIR UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER and we would have saved trillions. And those girls would have been educated!

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/23/world/middleeast/afghanis...

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#64

Post by EGreg » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:31 AM UTC

athrowaw wrote: post #55

kstenerud wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted for engaging in whataboutism, which is a variation of the tu quoque logical fallacy [1]. It's been overused in recent times (especially in relation to the Russian invasion of Ukraine) and people are growing tired of it (and rightly so, as it merely derails discussion and fuels flame wars - contrary to the spirit of HN). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

It doesn't seem whataboutism in the comment, as the author says "Russia is a bad actor", so it's not about someone did something before, so it should be accepted now. It's more about non equal treatment of the same bad situation done by different parties. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

not even the same, but far worse action gets no punishment whatsoever

"help us punish this murderer" "done".

"what about this serial killer? can we punish him too?" "NO! STOP IT WITH YOUR WHATABOUTISM!!"

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#65

Post by Swizec » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:34 AM UTC

xkcd1963 wrote: post #25

foolfoolz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

men and women are not equal

Only when it comes to some biological factors. Most of what we believe separates men from women is learned behavior.

The point of segregating physical sports is to give women (people who went through female puberty) a fighting chance.

There’s a famous experiment by the Williams sisters, two of the best female tennis players ever, who got demolished by a guy ranked 203rd in the world. There is no way for a woman to make up the testosterone difference in sports where physical prowess matters.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-the-williams-sisters...

No that doesn’t mean every man is fitter than every woman. It matters in top ranks of a sport.

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#66

Post by jfengel » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:36 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #41

jfengel wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of a discussion about how chess players (and people in general) are treated, however, they are not.

It would be, but that isn't this particular discussion, this is about chess. And so for all intents and purposes men and women are equal.

This discussion is about tournaments, which are about a lot more than what happens over the board.

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#67

Post by EGreg » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:37 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #31

EGreg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I originally wrote this to ask if anyone else is bothered by the hypocrisy. If you're going to downvote this, I would definitely appreciate if you at least write why you disagree. Also if you are bothered by the hypocrisy, I'd appreciate if you said so. Either way, am I just being crazy? I know I'm not the only one, but I also want to understand where I'm wrong. "What appears to be the position of the Muzychuks…

I think the difference is that we’re doing the invading in those instances. This is the opposite, where our literal backyard is being invaded. They’d have to be stomped on for no other reason than to prevent them doing it again. I’m also of the opinion that the US and allies probably had more valid reasons to invade any of the countries they did in the past 25 years than Russia had to invade Ukraine. I feel like the…

If you forgive me for saying this, your first line sounds like you were a Russian writing this from Russia. Because it would make more sense - think about it.

How is Ukraine "our literal back yard"? It is half a planet away! What is USA doing there? On the other hand, it is Russia's literal back yard. Actually, more than that, it used to be former Russian territory and they care about the people on it not being bombed.

For that matter, what is the "north atlantic treaty organization" doing with Georgia, which is the Black Sea?

The answer, of course, is obvious. NATO is a military alliance against Russia. And now, QUAD is a military alliance against China. We will try to surround them, and they'll try to resist, like a cornered animal. Then they'll use military force to prevent being totally surrounded with nukes (which is what they believe will happen if they do absolutely nothing like a "good actor"). And their neighbors (e.g. Ukraine, Taiwan) will carry heavy losses.

OR ... we could just stop this cold war proxy war nonsense, and spare places like Vietnam, Laos, Ukraine, Taiwan, etc. Because they're the ones that have to pay the price, not us. And we know that. If it was OUR cities being bombed, we'd do more to avoid the war.

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#68

Post by ahi » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:40 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #8

dmix wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these chess tournos usually this dramatic or was this just an atypical combination of geopolitics seeping into sport and other issues gaining purchase out of the sum of the chaos?

Chess, like any other highly competitive international sport has a lot of drama. One of the big problems with it is that white is heavily advantaged, there's a large incentive for incumbents to play for a draw, and playing back-to-back matches is incredibly exhausting. Any attempts at correcting for this can result in an unfair set of rules for someone .

Not enough money in it either. Highly competitive people arent exactly known for their social maturity, but other sports/comps have entourages and $ to keep them in line. This read like the minutes of an academic department meeting.

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#69

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:44 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #31

EGreg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I originally wrote this to ask if anyone else is bothered by the hypocrisy. If you're going to downvote this, I would definitely appreciate if you at least write why you disagree. Also if you are bothered by the hypocrisy, I'd appreciate if you said so. Either way, am I just being crazy? I know I'm not the only one, but I also want to understand where I'm wrong. "What appears to be the position of the Muzychuks…

I think the difference is that we’re doing the invading in those instances. This is the opposite, where our literal backyard is being invaded. They’d have to be stomped on for no other reason than to prevent them doing it again. I’m also of the opinion that the US and allies probably had more valid reasons to invade any of the countries they did in the past 25 years than Russia had to invade Ukraine. I feel like the…

[deleted]

Re: Fide Women’s Grand Prix Collapses into “Chaos” as Players Withdraw

#70

Post by kstenerud » Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 2:06 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #57

kstenerud wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been around political discourse long enough to realize that people saying "whataboutism" is a shibboleth that is used to excuse extreme double standards and hypocrisy. Please actually read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Trust me, not only did I read it, but I also thought through these issues over the years. "Yes, Politician B did do this-or-that immoral thing, but then again so do other politicians. So what's the big deal?" This is not what's being said. What's being said is: We typically want to stay neutral among conflicts. You are pressuring us to take an unprecedented step of banning athletes from country X because country X di…

Actually no, it's about moral shifts. The morality of today is very, very, very different from what it was a mere thousand years ago. Brigandry (killing travelers on the road so that you can take their stuff) was once considered a noble profession, for example.

But the world moves on, and morality has a tendency to move in tectonic shifts. Suddenly (it seems), what was okay is no longer okay, because the people say so. "Suddenly", it's not okay to kill passers-by and take their stuff. "Suddenly", it's not okay to treat children any way you please as their parents and masters. "Suddenly", it's only natural that a man doesn't need to be of noble birth to vote. "Suddenly", it's even a woman's right to vote. "Suddenly", apartheid isn't okay anymore. "Suddenly", you're not allowed to kick your dog anymore.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is one of those "suddenlys". Wars of conquest (i.e. invading and annexing a neighboring country) fell out of favor in the 19th century, with the last major hurrah in the 1930s. The world has moved on, and it's no longer okay to do that. We condemn Russia because we don't allow that sort of behavior anymore. But throwing "what about America doing X and Y?" around would be like protesting anti-apartheid campaigns against South Africa just because racial inequality and violence hadn't been solved in America (in fact, there was a fair bit of whataboutism by those who opposed changing the South African order). It just comes off as crass and self-serving in the end.

If you want real change, you push for a movement and solidarity against evil. That's what these Ukrainian woman have done, and it's beautiful to see. The whataboutism that tears down their supports on the other hand, is a most insidious evil, because you're basically telling Americans that they have no right to stand against Russia's evil acts (the call of hypocrisy, tu-quoque). You shame potential allies into inaction against a clear and present evil, which is a horrible thing to do on so many levels.