US bars friends over Twitter joke • Hacker News Board

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#191

Post by lignuist » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

maaku wrote: post #166

lignuist wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For instance... No, it was more a joke. :) I think we all know, that trying to catch terrorist via twitter is pointless.

Perhaps, but it's a reasonable way to catch mentally unstable people acting out crazy fantasies... Such people might actually post their plans on twitter.

What if authorities cannot distinguish between such utterances and bad jokes? (Obviously they can't) I think, many people would change the way they communicate, if a single silly tweet can have legal consequences or even can destroy their lives.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#192

Post by hezekiah » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #73

nextparadigms wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is done as the "land of the free". It's still very hard for many people to believe it, but it's true. I mean it's 47th place in the world for freedom of press now - 47th! That's far from the beacon of freedom US used to be. Whenever I see the heavily armed and militarized police in US and how they react to protesters, it's like I'm watching news about Russia or something.

I left the country in 2008, and I'm wondering if I'll ever go back. It's only gotten worse since I've been gone. It's almost to the point where I'm not even sure I want to visit any time soon.

Left in 2008 as well, last time I went back I was first denied entry because my American passport (issued a few months previous in Frankfurt) was "invalid". After some haggling I convinced them that indeed, it was a valid passport, and they should check their computer that in fact I was who I said I was. Eventually, after about ten minutes questioning, I was allowed in. Being of nth-generation pilgrim descent apparently didn't matter.

Fast forward to landing in Germany, where I was not only not a citizen, I wasn't even a permanent resident. After looking at my passport for all of about two seconds, I was whisked through the border.

It sucks to be treated like a criminal in your own country, but it's what the US has come to for everyone now. Sure has been that way for, at various times, native americans, blacks, the irish, hispanics, chinese, whatever. But now instead of treating everyone like a free citizen, the decision has been made to treat us all like potential criminals.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#193

Post by GFischer » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

madflo wrote: post #122

GFischer wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actively avoided the U.S. even though I still want to go, because of those same issues. I even was a few meters from the U.S. (Niagara Falls) and avoided going because of all the visa complications and expenses plus the security measures (if it had been a given I'd be accepted I would have gone, but they don't like young unattached people saying they want to do "tourism", they expect we'll want to stay).

French national who visited Canada a few months ago here. I crossed the US/CA border with only a small backpack ( I left my luggage at the bus station ) and the US border agents after the Rainbow Bridge where fun and welcoming. It wasn't the case in SFO, after a 12 hours flight from Paris, the agent was OK but far from welcoming.

As a Uruguay national, I can't "just cross".

I have to apply for a visa, and at the time there was a significant chance of it being denied - and forget about being refunded, and chances of it being accepted after re-applying drop dramatically. So it isn't worth it.

I could probably be accepted for a visa now since I "settled down".

And Canadian customs and inmigration were very friendly, I don't doubt the U.S. people might be the same (though they did fingerprint my father the time he was there, and he reported a few not so friendly times, and he is a frequent visitor).

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#194

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:25 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #164

rsynnott wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, for the whole of the 20th century, I think, one could make the argument that there were places freer, particularly if one happened to be a member of one of the US's more hated minority groups. From WW2 to the 60s, if you happened to be a racial minority, there was almost no-where less free in the developed world; the US was extremely late amongst developed countries to grant universal suffrage.

the US was extremely late amongst developed countries to grant universal suffrage I'll agree with you that the civil rights movement beginning in the 1960s was necessary for the United States to extend the benefits of freedom to all its citizens. But universal suffrage for women came significantly earlier in the United States than it did in Switzerland, for example, and black people in my state (Minnesota) have alway…

Yep, I didn't say it was the last democratic developed country to grant universal suffrage, because of Switzerland (or the one or two cantons that didn't let women vote).

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#195

Post by noonespecial » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:29 PM UTC

You can't joke about the prophet. You can't joke about the US. Zealots just have no sense of humor.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#196

Post by electic » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:32 PM UTC

jsavimbi wrote: post #132

beedogs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left the country in 2008, and I'm wondering if I'll ever go back. It's only gotten worse since I've been gone. It's almost to the point where I'm not even sure I want to visit any time soon.

It's not that it has become worse, it's just that all those crazy things that happened after 9/11 have become institutionalized and bureaucratically entrenched. Good luck getting rid of stupid when stupid has a budget.

"Good luck getting rid of stupid when stupid has a budget."

I love that line. Catchy.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#197

Post by jakejake » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

slavak wrote: post #76

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These stories we keep seeing do the US no good at all. From the outside the you look don't look very attractive to visit or do business with.

I know that for me everything I'm hearing has dropped the US quite a bit on my "places to visit" list. To be fair, I realize my impression is probably slanted because of the origin and type of foreign news I'm exposed to.

Keep in mind this is a sensationalist story. The TSA unfortunately consists of workers trained to follow procedures by the book and have no authority to use common sense. Luckily the only place you ever deal with them is at the airport and usually you'll just walk right on through.

This does not represent the people US who generally like tourists and will be delighted and impressed by your accent, and helpful to show you around our country. (Yes, even in New York City!) Don't be put off by a few assholes, unfortunately we have them here too.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#198

Post by twopi » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

rdouble wrote: post #188

tokenadult wrote: post #170

Maybe it's time to differ from hivemind here. I should make clear that I cherish my right as an American, which I exercise liberally at home and abroad, to criticize the American government in general. I also like to call out specific elected or appointed officials (for example, the President, whoever he is each term) any time I think they are making mistakes. Participants on Hacker News who are also my Facebook frie…

Considering ALL the trade-offs, which places are really, truly plainly better places to live than the United States? My sister left Minnesota for Australia 7 years ago and lives down the street from the beach, it's sunny 300 days a year, temp never below 50 degrees. She makes 2.5x what she did in the USA for the same job, only has to work 4 days a week, husband makes six figures as a tradesmen, family gets paid $5K w…

And that is why I'm going back to OZ in 3 months. Can't wait! A country where people smile.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#199

Post by _b8r0 » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 7:22 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #120

Those guys are screwed now. Refusal of access means that they'll never get in on the visa waiver program and any employment in the future that might be with a multi-national will be limited by their ability to travel. They just won't be able to enter the USA without going through an arduously long process every time. I've been telling my friends for the longest time to moderate everything that they say on the interne…

> Those guys are screwed now.

Really? Are you sure? They've never been before and it doesn't look like they'd even want to go after this. I haven't been to the US since 1999 and I don't feel screwed in any way shape or form.

Plenty of multi-nationals don't require you to travel to the states, even here in the UK. Travelling to the US is expensive, holding conference calls in the afternoon is much cheaper.

> It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the Stasi.

You'll have to forgive me for finding this a little hyperbolic. Not as hyperbolic as I'd like, but still fairly hyperbolic.

Re: US bars friends over Twitter joke

#200

Post by koningrobot » Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

jordan0day wrote: post #158

koningrobot wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because of the nature of freedom. Freedom is to constraints as silence is to sound. Constraints are the things that positively exist, freedom only exists as the negative space. This is also why the concept of free will is so problematic: how free does will have to be to be called free will? Does it have to be free from the laws of physics? Does it have to be free from coercion? I think there are more concepts…

I think your first sentence is really interesting & insightful, kind of treating "true" freedom as a sort of absolute zero -- that is, a never-actually-reachable ideal. I feel like free will doesn't have much to do with the kind of freedom we're talking about, though. If some other human being (or group) has the ability to make you do something you don't want to do , that's a problem of freedom , not free will . (Aft…

I see at least two implications of what I said, one being that freedom is an absolute zero, the other being that shifting freedom around is a zero-sum game. Maybe these two are related in some game-theoretic way, I'm not sure. The only fundamentally productive way of obtaining freedom is by getting more control over our environment, i.e., technological progress.

I understand the distinction you're making between freedom and free will; I mentioned it because the compatibilist notion of free will is what you're calling freedom here. But yeah, it's probably not too relevant to the original discussion.