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Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

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Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#111

Post by barbazoo »

thwayunion wrote: post #100
tablespoon wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.) So should the hi…

There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1]. Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they c…

> Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm. It's about bigotry, not the kids.

And most of the time the people referencing the book haven't even read it is what drives me nuts. It'd be so easy to pick things that were actually in the book but they always have to go one step too far and make shit up. We live in a world where these idiots read something and blindly share it without doing a shred of research. Anything that supports their bigoted views.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#112

Post by tablespoon »

thwayunion wrote: post #100
tablespoon wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.) So should the hi…

There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1]. Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they c…

> There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations.

Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre).

> These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm.

You do realize those aren't mutually exclusive? The wrong people attacking it on the wrong grounds is not justification for stocking pornography in a school library.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#113

Post by atoav »

KevinEldon wrote: post #33
atoav wrote: post #8

As a european that frequently discusses political topics with people from the US, I recall times when conservatives over there were all about "small government" and "freedom of speech" and how they would literally fight for those rights (that's what the second amendment was written for in their eyes). Where are those people today? Why are they not more vocal? Or were these values always just a veneer for something el…

The state unanimously passed a law to exclude sexually explicit books from public school libraries. A reasonable thing to do. The library association and the ACLU decided they wanted to sue the state. The state, in turn, removed the relatively small amount of funds allocated for the libraries. FaFo. All of this is in the article.

Why is this reasonable? Children come in touch with porn at earlier and earlier ages and they may be very confused by that.

The school provides a good space to learn something a bit more realistic about sexuality at the appropriate ages. But of course as a european I know that the US in parts has extremely prude ideas (your censorship also affects us).

That being said, there are many modern nations where kids learn about sex in school for a while now, and they didn't develop psychological trauma or anxiety because of that (quite the opposite). It isn't as if there are no studies done in that field.

But prude morality seems to trump everything. Some don't seem to realize that supressing sexuality is something religions tend to do for a reason (and it is not the good of their hearts).

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#114

Post by barbazoo »

tablespoon wrote: post #112
thwayunion wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1]. Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they c…

> There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre). > These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. The…

> Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre).

As I said, the first picture is taken out of context and the second one isn't even in the book. This book is porn the same way other educational material about anatomy and sexuality are porn.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#115

Post by ensignavenger »

rhcom2 wrote: post #78
ensignavenger wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This law in question (in MO) is very explicitly about porn. It does not apply to the text, but to images, and specifically exempts scientific and sex education material.

You think school libraries are currently stocking actual porn and this law was needed to prevent that?

I have no evidence that school libraries were stocking porn or that this law was necessary.

However, this law applies to more than just libraries. I know of at least one case when I was in High School where a teacher was accused of giving a student a Play Boy magazine and I believe this case played a part in that teachers dismissal.

I never said that I felt the law was necessary, only that I read it and that it is not what is being portrayed here.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#116

Post by tablespoon »

barbazoo wrote: post #114
tablespoon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre). > These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. The…

> Not in this case. Those images are 100% graphic porn (of the cartoon/hentai variety). I saw the pictures upthread. Porn that presents itself as "educational" is still porn (IIRC, that's also a actual real-people-having-sex porn genre). As I said, the first picture is taken out of context and the second one isn't even in the book. This book is porn the same way other educational material about anatomy and sexuality…

> As I said, the first picture is taken out of context...

There isn't a context that could make that first POV/frontal view picture of someone getting a blowjob not-porn.

If that's appropriate for school, so is hentai.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#117

Post by tablespoon »

yamtaddle wrote: post #108
tablespoon wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. It doesn't belong in a high school library either. I thought they were exaggerating when they said it that book was pornography, but holy shit it was literally true. What's next? A hentai section in the school library next to the manga?

Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board. There's a whole nice, approachable, local body to deal with all this, basically everywhere in the US. It's arguably one of the closest-to-the-people and easiest-for-constituents-to-influence governing bodies that exists in this country. [ED…

> Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board.

Maybe they should do that too (and I believe that's actually not uncommon), but it doesn't preclude or de-legitimize other political action to address the problem.

In any case, tactical criticism such as yours is almost always noise. It usually amounts to a veiled instruction to surrender, and in any case would be constructed against any tactic chosen (e.g. "whatever it is you're doing, it's not the right way and you should stop and do some other thing). Also, opponents are motivated to give poor tactical advice and typically do so.

> because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate

Come on. All sides are grandstanding all the time nowadays, even on this particular issue. Complaints about it are almost always soaked with myside bias.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#118

Post by jessaustin »

KevinEldon wrote: post #52
jessaustin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

TFA contains no examples of children being shown "sexually explicit material" by educators in public employ. I've never heard of it happening in Missouri, and I have lived here for decades. Thread parent has shown no indication of bigotry. You don't seem to be discussing this issue in good faith.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#119

Post by jessaustin »

nostromo wrote: post #98
anigbrowl wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat off-topic, but the other day a school principal in Florida was forced out of a job because some parents were upset that their 6th-graders were exposed to an image of Michelangelo's David - in an art history class: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11894493/Tallahasse... There's an overlap between these sort of hyper-reactionary people and politically motivated street toughs, who are likely to keep esc…

That's a charter school though. They're largely free to shape the content however they like.

Somehow one doubts that a new "Kindergarten is Mostly Hardcore Porn Appreciation" charter elementary would escape legislative attention in our increasingly authoritarian climate...

A "Kindergarten is Mostly Singing Songs about Jesus" charter elementary, OTOH? We may have a few hundred of those already.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#120

Post by actsasbuffoon »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #28

Where should the line be drawn? As a parent of kids in elementary and middle school, I don't want them reading about anything sexually explicit. Maybe in high school but I feel something should be done to evaluate what reading materials are seen by children. We didn't do it with social media, we didn't do it with pornography, and we bear the results of that nonintervention. What is the best argument for allowing elem…

There are a lot of reasons.

First, we’re not talking to kids about intercourse. We’re saying kids need to have some amount of knowledge about this stuff that is appropriate for their age.

For example, small kids who are put into the care of strangers need to be aware that adults are not allowed to touch them without permission. They need to know the proper names for their private parts because it’s more difficult to understand if a kid is being abused when they’re using strange euphemisms. They need to understand that they shouldn’t be ashamed to tell an adult if someone touches them in a way that makes them uncomfortable.

Are these conversations I want to have with my young child? Hell no! But they’re necessary for a kid his age. I wouldn’t be doing my job as a parent if I didn’t teach him these things.

The reality is that it’s going to be a series of age appropriate conversations every few years, because he’s going to need to know a little more as he gets older.

And if parents are sending their kids into the world without this kind of age appropriate information then they’re putting their kids at serious risk for abuse. Frankly, this is the kind of situation where I’d be glad that schools and libraries are making age appropriate materials like this available for kids; to help the kids whose parents aren’t doing their jobs.

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