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Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

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Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#91

Post by tablespoon »

prasadjoglekar wrote: post #42
izzydata wrote: post #18

If they are willing to go to such extremes to censor books how do they feel about the internet? The internet has a reach that is orders of magnitude greater than books, but I never hear about lawmakers attempting to shut down the internet or part of the internet. Is it just too decentralized to even attempt or is their pursuit of book censorship just for show to impress their followers?

It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime. Schools are publicly funded by taxes; those taxes are apportioned by elected representatives. The legislature has the right to dictate what the money can and can't be used for. That's not censorship.

> It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime.

It's censorship and an infringement on the basic constitutional rights of public employees to independently make purchasing decisions for the government.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#92

Post by ensignavenger »

cguess wrote: post #69
ensignavenger wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This law in question (in MO) is very explicitly about porn. It does not apply to the text, but to images, and specifically exempts scientific and sex education material.

From the article: "The law, which was approved last year as part of a larger package addressing sexual assault survivors’ rights, prohibits images in school materials that could be considered sexually explicit, such as depictions of genitals or sex acts." They're not talking about porn, they're talking about any coming of age story that deals with sex at all.

You can read the actual law. Your description is incorrect.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#93

Post by thwayunion »

kimbernator wrote: post #90

The truth is that the assertion that elementary schools are trying to expose children to pornography is outright untrue, because of course it is. Conservatives have simply decided to equate that with allowing children to freely see same-sex relationships portrayed in the same way as opposite-sex relationships have been portrayed to them forever. It's a lie that only serves to divide people and try to convince them of…

Someone will reply to this with a list of news articles purporting to contradict you, and all of those articles will be about controversies surrounding books available in high school or public libraries.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#94

Post by tablespoon »

barbazoo wrote: post #49
nostromo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy: (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred) https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... (Edit: only one page is from Gender Queer, another is fr…

> Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy: > (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred) > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > If a parent wanted to give this book to their…

> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child.

It doesn't belong in a high school library either.

I thought they were exaggerating when they said it that book was pornography, but holy shit it was literally true.

What's next? A hentai section in the school library next to the manga?

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#95

Post by yamtaddle »

crackercrews wrote: post #77
jessaustin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line should be drawn wherever parents, teachers, and librarians choose to draw it. Politicians should not be involved. Top-down meddling has destroyed public education in USA, and this is just more of that. At some point we should stop making public schools worse.

Aren't politicians involved whenever the will of the voters is being enacted? What if most parents in MO support what the politicians are doing? What if they called their representatives and asked them to take action against libraries? If you oppose top-down meddling in public education then I assume you support vouchers? That's about as bottom-up as things get.

> If you oppose top-down meddling in public education then I assume you support vouchers? That's about as bottom-up as things get.

Bad assumption. That's a fundamental POV difference between "I pay taxes to fund the public education system" and "I pay taxes to pay for kids to go to some school". The notion that those tax dollars belong to the parents and not specifically the public school system depends on which of those you think is, or should be, the case.

For my part, if the money's not exclusively funding the public school system, I don't want to pay any taxes toward schools. Talk about bottom up!

[EDIT] FWIW I'm actually for allowing districts to experiment with this, because I doubt mine would do it and I think the results would be hilarious, but would prefer not to have to move to another state to avoid it, so would rather the red parts of my state not impose it on my district.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#96

Post by jessaustin »

crackercrews wrote: post #77
jessaustin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line should be drawn wherever parents, teachers, and librarians choose to draw it. Politicians should not be involved. Top-down meddling has destroyed public education in USA, and this is just more of that. At some point we should stop making public schools worse.

Aren't politicians involved whenever the will of the voters is being enacted? What if most parents in MO support what the politicians are doing? What if they called their representatives and asked them to take action against libraries? If you oppose top-down meddling in public education then I assume you support vouchers? That's about as bottom-up as things get.

I live in one of the most rural counties in Missouri, where libraries could actually close as a result, and I doubt I could find one parent in ten among my neighbors who wants the legislature to waste time on this cynical grandstanding. The problem with our libraries is not that there is pornography there. One notes that both of the execrable politicians quoted in TFA represent suburban districts on the Kansas border. I'm sure there are people in the Ozarks who agree with them, but overall we've got different priorities.

The unwarranted assumption you make in this comment is that legislation in USA reflects the will of the population. That is very rarely the case, and this is a perfect example. No one in this state woke up this morning worried about porn in an elementary school library.

I support vouchers, because even imperfect improvements are improvements. If a child isn't being served by a school, even poor parents should be able to do something about that. We can imagine a world in which the public schools offer enough options to help every child, but we don't live there yet.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#97

Post by tablespoon »

thwayunion wrote: post #70
zdragnar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No sane educator or library person... That's the problem: https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jc... https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-lib... https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-me... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclu... https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-i... There's plenty more, and even more that…

>>> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much. >> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. > That's the problem: The first article is about 2 high schools. The second article is about a high school.…

> (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.)

So should the high school library have a hentai section next to the manga? Hustlers on the magazine rack next to Newsweek? Lots of teens vape, so no one should have a problem with vape juice vending machines in the cafeteria, right? Wouldn't it make sense for the school district to have a PornHub subscription to supplement ProQuest?

The fact that teens do some thing does not at all imply it's appropriate for a school setting.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#98

Post by nostromo »

anigbrowl wrote: post #71
mrguyorama wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing that most of these people want to kill sexual education too. They are openly against modern education, and think the father of the household should have final say on anything and everything.

Somewhat off-topic, but the other day a school principal in Florida was forced out of a job because some parents were upset that their 6th-graders were exposed to an image of Michelangelo's David - in an art history class: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11894493/Tallahasse... There's an overlap between these sort of hyper-reactionary people and politically motivated street toughs, who are likely to keep esc…

That's a charter school though. They're largely free to shape the content however they like.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#99

Post by remarkEon »

yamtaddle wrote: post #83
prasadjoglekar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime. Schools are publicly funded by taxes; those taxes are apportioned by elected representatives. The legislature has the right to dictate what the money can and can't be used for. That's not censorship.

Sure—and, traditionally, local school boards have dealt with all that just fine . Which, given the fraction of funding that comes from local property taxes in most districts, seems appropriate to me. This is big government stepping in to override decisions of local governments that they disagree with.

You may not like it, but this is how democracy works.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#100

Post by thwayunion »

tablespoon wrote: post #97
thwayunion wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much. >> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. > That's the problem: The first article is about 2 high schools. The second article is about a high school.…

> (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.) So should the hi…

There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations.

You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1].

Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm. It's about bigotry, not the kids. As evidenced by the fact that these comments even crop up on articles such as this one, where the article isn't even about school libraries [2].

Sex and sexuality are deeply important parts of being human and it's possible to have uncensored discussion of this part of humanity without reaching for Hustler or hentai. I'm saddened that there are apparently people who aren't able to distinguish between uncensored discussion and straight up porn. Who cannot read or think or talk about sex without their brains pulling up hentai and pin-up girl style pornography. What an impoverished experience of humanity these people must have. No wonder they are so angry all the time.

[1] https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Howl_Obscenity_T...

[2] See https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP... and https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP...; $0.00 of the funds discussed in this article go to school libraries.

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