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Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

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Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#61

Post by kimbernator »

prasadjoglekar wrote: post #42
izzydata wrote: post #18

If they are willing to go to such extremes to censor books how do they feel about the internet? The internet has a reach that is orders of magnitude greater than books, but I never hear about lawmakers attempting to shut down the internet or part of the internet. Is it just too decentralized to even attempt or is their pursuit of book censorship just for show to impress their followers?

It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime. Schools are publicly funded by taxes; those taxes are apportioned by elected representatives. The legislature has the right to dictate what the money can and can't be used for. That's not censorship.

Not everyone can afford to just buy whatever books they want, but they still pay taxes. It's a huge cop-out to say "oh it's not banning the books completely, just removing the only method by which tons of people are able to access that literature."

It's a huge violation of the spirit of libraries. It is effectively censorship. I guaranteed that the bible, despite portraying just about every subject they are trying to hide, is present in every single school library in the state.

Saying that kids only get free access to the books the state legislators agree with is absolutely censorship.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#62

Post by ensignavenger »

cguess wrote: post #55
Overtonwindow wrote: post #28

Where should the line be drawn? As a parent of kids in elementary and middle school, I don't want them reading about anything sexually explicit. Maybe in high school but I feel something should be done to evaluate what reading materials are seen by children. We didn't do it with social media, we didn't do it with pornography, and we bear the results of that nonintervention. What is the best argument for allowing elem…

And that's your prerogative to actually parent your children and keep an eye on what they check out and what they're doing online. However, pushing your values onto the community at large because you're worried about your middle school child knowing what sex is. The books these conservatives want to ban aren't porn, they're complex stories about complex topics that your kids may have to deal with themselves. If you d…

This law in question (in MO) is very explicitly about porn. It does not apply to the text, but to images, and specifically exempts scientific and sex education material.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#63

Post by DSMan195276 »

prasadjoglekar wrote: post #42
izzydata wrote: post #18

If they are willing to go to such extremes to censor books how do they feel about the internet? The internet has a reach that is orders of magnitude greater than books, but I never hear about lawmakers attempting to shut down the internet or part of the internet. Is it just too decentralized to even attempt or is their pursuit of book censorship just for show to impress their followers?

It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime. Schools are publicly funded by taxes; those taxes are apportioned by elected representatives. The legislature has the right to dictate what the money can and can't be used for. That's not censorship.

So then it would be fine if a parent bought such a book and donated it to a school library?

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#65

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

nawgz wrote: post #10

Jokes about fascism aside, you can tell that our social climate is in a very unhealthy and unstable spot when something that was previously a community staple has been relegated to the outskirts and can be attacked with not only impunity from criticism but cheers from the supporters. Knowledge and truth itself are being eroded; on the one hand, very intentionally and precipitously by politicians and corporations enac…

They have no realistic public policy platform. The culture warrior drama is all to keep the base energized since their tribal behavior is the only hope of winning elections.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#66

Post by remarkEon »

prasadjoglekar wrote: post #42
izzydata wrote: post #18

If they are willing to go to such extremes to censor books how do they feel about the internet? The internet has a reach that is orders of magnitude greater than books, but I never hear about lawmakers attempting to shut down the internet or part of the internet. Is it just too decentralized to even attempt or is their pursuit of book censorship just for show to impress their followers?

It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime. Schools are publicly funded by taxes; those taxes are apportioned by elected representatives. The legislature has the right to dictate what the money can and can't be used for. That's not censorship.

What's been really jarring about this issue is that everyone is calling it a "book ban", when it demonstrably is not. It's removing certain (in some cases pornographic) material from school curricula and libraries. Maybe you can steelman an argument that goes something like "if they remove this from school curricula and libraries, they'll try to remove it from the [everywhere else] too". This is of course silly. Plus, you can just go actually read the text of these laws.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#67

Post by krapp »

cguess wrote: post #59
Philorandroid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the answer lies in teaching kids (young adults?) in an objective, strictly-educational manner as the time dawns for it to become relevant in their lives. Of course that solution would be objected to by both sides. The social leftists think it's literally a death sentence to trans children to not teach 6-year-olds about anal sex, and populist conservatives think sex ed in any capacity is degenerate pedophilia.

> The social leftists think it's literally a death sentence to trans children to not teach 6-year-olds about anal sex Where... where has any leftist said that?

Only the straw leftists that live rent free in these fascists' heads.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#68

Post by tzs »

prasadjoglekar wrote: post #42
izzydata wrote: post #18

If they are willing to go to such extremes to censor books how do they feel about the internet? The internet has a reach that is orders of magnitude greater than books, but I never hear about lawmakers attempting to shut down the internet or part of the internet. Is it just too decentralized to even attempt or is their pursuit of book censorship just for show to impress their followers?

It's not censoring books; rather a state choosing which books to publicly fund in school libraries. No one is banning parents from buying those books on their own dime. Schools are publicly funded by taxes; those taxes are apportioned by elected representatives. The legislature has the right to dictate what the money can and can't be used for. That's not censorship.

It's a state trying to pull all state funding for public libraries (not just school libraries--all public libraries) because a couple library associations are suing over the constitutionality of an earlier law. And the law they are now trying to pass to defund the libraries is possibly not constitutional under the state constitution since that requires the state to fund public libraries.

That's worse than censorship.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#69

Post by cguess »

ensignavenger wrote: post #62
cguess wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's your prerogative to actually parent your children and keep an eye on what they check out and what they're doing online. However, pushing your values onto the community at large because you're worried about your middle school child knowing what sex is. The books these conservatives want to ban aren't porn, they're complex stories about complex topics that your kids may have to deal with themselves. If you d…

This law in question (in MO) is very explicitly about porn. It does not apply to the text, but to images, and specifically exempts scientific and sex education material.

From the article: "The law, which was approved last year as part of a larger package addressing sexual assault survivors’ rights, prohibits images in school materials that could be considered sexually explicit, such as depictions of genitals or sex acts."

They're not talking about porn, they're talking about any coming of age story that deals with sex at all.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#70

Post by thwayunion »

zdragnar wrote: post #60
barbazoo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy: > (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred) > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > If a parent wanted to give this book to their…

> No sane educator or library person... That's the problem: https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jc... https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-lib... https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-me... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclu... https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-i... There's plenty more, and even more that…

>>> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much.

>> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child.

> That's the problem:

The first article is about 2 high schools.

The second article is about a high school.

The third article is about a high school.

The fourth article is about a high school.

The fifth article is also about a... wait for it!... a high school.

High schools are not primary schools and high schoolers are not young children.

(Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.)

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