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Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

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Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#51

Post by jessaustin »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #28

Where should the line be drawn? As a parent of kids in elementary and middle school, I don't want them reading about anything sexually explicit. Maybe in high school but I feel something should be done to evaluate what reading materials are seen by children. We didn't do it with social media, we didn't do it with pornography, and we bear the results of that nonintervention. What is the best argument for allowing elem…

The line should be drawn wherever parents, teachers, and librarians choose to draw it. Politicians should not be involved. Top-down meddling has destroyed public education in USA, and this is just more of that. At some point we should stop making public schools worse.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#53

Post by ensignavenger »

alex_young wrote: post #7
jmclnx wrote: post #3

[flagged]

If you hold that book up to the same standards it probably has be banned too right? Lots of sexually explicit content in that one. Edit: Instead of downvoting maybe do a little research first? Here's a story about a lawsuit in Utah aiming to remove the bible from schools based on the same silly grounds they are banning other books: https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2023/03/22/utah-parent...

The law in question (in MO) does not deal with text descriptions, but only images, so unless it was a illustrated Bible, it would not apply. It also exempts sex education and science books.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#54

Post by thwayunion »

temp_praneshp wrote: post #35
thwayunion wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Missouri, so I highly doubt the money is equally distributed among libraries. You can see where aid goes here: https://www.sos.mo.gov/library/development/stateaid/default And then you can look up or estimate the total spend for each of those community's libraries. Likely this means approximately nothing for most suburban, urban, and exurban/college town/resort town/etc. library systems. Those communities can eas…

Are the politicians pushing for this from rural areas? Seems like either they are serving their constituents, or they'll be voted out next time?

> Are the politicians pushing for this from rural areas?

Predominantly.

> Seems like either they are serving their constituents, or they'll be voted out next time?

It satisfies an immediate vengeance, but is very "cut off my nose to spite my face" for rural Missourians. In 10 years when the "drag queens in libraries" moral panic is long forgotten, these communities will lament the loss of their libraries.

Your question is deep, and gets to the heart of why we even bother electing representatives in the first place.

If reps are only there to channel the emotional state of their constituents, then what's the point of having representative democracy? If representation does not come with some expectation of leadership, then representation is a poor proxy for public will with no upside. If elected officials have no moral responsibility or practical expectation to lead -- and are just reactionary automata -- then get rid of the politicians and do everything via the ballot box.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#55

Post by cguess »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #28

Where should the line be drawn? As a parent of kids in elementary and middle school, I don't want them reading about anything sexually explicit. Maybe in high school but I feel something should be done to evaluate what reading materials are seen by children. We didn't do it with social media, we didn't do it with pornography, and we bear the results of that nonintervention. What is the best argument for allowing elem…

And that's your prerogative to actually parent your children and keep an eye on what they check out and what they're doing online. However, pushing your values onto the community at large because you're worried about your middle school child knowing what sex is.

The books these conservatives want to ban aren't porn, they're complex stories about complex topics that your kids may have to deal with themselves. If you don't want them reading that stuff do your job as a parent.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#56

Post by dannyobrien »

atoav wrote: post #8

As a european that frequently discusses political topics with people from the US, I recall times when conservatives over there were all about "small government" and "freedom of speech" and how they would literally fight for those rights (that's what the second amendment was written for in their eyes). Where are those people today? Why are they not more vocal? Or were these values always just a veneer for something el…

Not that I'd agree with them, but I don't see the inconsistency: cutting funding of libraries is smaller government. The question of whether school book bans violates the First Amendment is a contested one, and has some interplay with the current pushes on left and right to control what is available online. Basically, it revolves around whether you think determining what content is in a school library is censorship, or just one of the functions of government. The U.S. Supreme Court was divided on it the last time it came up. https://reason.com/volokh/2023/02/27/does-the-first-amendmen...

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#57

Post by ensignavenger »

mulmen wrote: post #5

> The proposal, approved close to midnight by the House Budget Committee, would cut the entire $4.5 million in state aid that libraries were slated to get next year. The proposed library cut, along with other changes to the state’s roughly $50 billion budget, will now head to the full Missouri House. What does this mean for libraries? $4.5 million can't have been enough to fund a statewide library network so presumab…

The primary funding source for MO public libraries is local property taxes.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#58

Post by 29083011397778 »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #28

Where should the line be drawn? As a parent of kids in elementary and middle school, I don't want them reading about anything sexually explicit. Maybe in high school but I feel something should be done to evaluate what reading materials are seen by children. We didn't do it with social media, we didn't do it with pornography, and we bear the results of that nonintervention. What is the best argument for allowing elem…

Given at least one of yours has made it through elementary school, and we'll assume you're in-touch with what your children are reading in-class and for fun: do you recall any book your child brought home or read in school, or even was just in the elementary school library, that you didn't feel was age-appropriate?

I wouldn't assume any elementary-school librarian is stocking the kind of books you're concerned about, and I think it's possible you're being fed a line by politicians and the media, to drum up outrage and support for a narrative.

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#59

Post by cguess »

Philorandroid wrote: post #40
Overtonwindow wrote: post #28

Where should the line be drawn? As a parent of kids in elementary and middle school, I don't want them reading about anything sexually explicit. Maybe in high school but I feel something should be done to evaluate what reading materials are seen by children. We didn't do it with social media, we didn't do it with pornography, and we bear the results of that nonintervention. What is the best argument for allowing elem…

Perhaps the answer lies in teaching kids (young adults?) in an objective, strictly-educational manner as the time dawns for it to become relevant in their lives. Of course that solution would be objected to by both sides. The social leftists think it's literally a death sentence to trans children to not teach 6-year-olds about anal sex, and populist conservatives think sex ed in any capacity is degenerate pedophilia.

> The social leftists think it's literally a death sentence to trans children to not teach 6-year-olds about anal sex

Where... where has any leftist said that?

Re: Missouri lawmakers move to strip library funding, retaliate for book ban lawsuit

#60

Post by zdragnar »

barbazoo wrote: post #49
nostromo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy: (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred) https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... (Edit: only one page is from Gender Queer, another is fr…

> Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy: > (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred) > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > If a parent wanted to give this book to their…

> No sane educator or library person...

That's the problem:

https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jc...

https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-lib...

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-me...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclu...

https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-i...

There's plenty more, and even more that had it but were forced to remove it after parent backlash.

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