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Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

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Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#141

Post by mtalantikite »

jdiez17 wrote: post #128
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's amazing how little you actually learn about music when all you're doing is reading sheet music as a kid. I would add that historically, most musicians did not read music or theorize. They were practitioners who picked up the skill by listening to others, practicing, and improvising. Improvisation was what historically characterized musicianship, not theory, not sight-reading. As the philosophical joke goes: an…

Your last point is one of my long-standing pet-peeves about language teaching methods. It seems the universally accepted practice is to give students mountains of vocabulary to study, grammar rules that make no sense, and a little bit of speaking practice. It is no wonder that native speakers of language X have a characteristic accent when speaking in a different language. When they try to read a word in the foreign…

After years of starting and stopping language learning via classes that take the typical vocab/grammar approach, I've found I'm actually progressing with confidence using Pimsleur and other listening based approaches. It just makes a whole lot more sense to me this way and I wish my middle school/high school foreign language teachers had just handed me this instead (at least at the beginning).

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#142

Post by jayknight »

Mr-Frog wrote: post #25
haihaibye wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone asks about how to read sheet music faster, and you can't read it, it's ok to just not say anything

Michael Jackson never learned to read or write sheet music.

Irving Berlin couldn't read music and could only play the piano in F-sharp, so he had a piano build that could transpose to any key[1] and had someone to transcribe his music for him for publication.

[1] https://youtu.be/bO8VZoRw214

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#143

Post by Aidevah »

smulloni wrote: post #133
Aidevah wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pianist Charles Rosen mentioned a longstanding error when most pianists play Chopin's B-flat minor sonata: when they repeat the exposition they begin from the Doppio movimento, instead of the very beginning. Rosen's argument is pretty persuasive, and it's really head-scratching why pianist continue to make this mistake for so long. My impression was that most classical musicians aren't very bright, at least the p…

I've never been persuaded by Rosen's account of that repeat. Most accomplished pianists are plenty bright and have read their Rosen, but don't necessarily agree with everything he has to say. (His preference for the early Schumann editions, for instance.)

Rosen did mention that persistent error eventually harden into tradition, and we get used to anything, and what we are used to becomes what feels right. On the other hand I have never heard that Chopin sonata before I read Rosen's arguments, so starting the repeat from the beginning feels right for me.

In any case the evidence seems incontrovertible to me. The majority of the earliest sources support the reading, Brahms felt it was correct. The end of the exposition prepares for the Grave perfectly both in terms of rhythm and harmony, and the Grave appears in the development so it's clearly not a separate introduction. Are there any evidence for the other reading other than "we've always done it like this"?

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#144

Post by aidenn0 »

Rochus wrote: post #122
aidenn0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piano is, to a large degree, directly applied music theory. Recognizing scales, chords, and arpeggios is incredibly helpful for sight-reading.

Like it is helpful to know some details about your car engine for driving, but it's not a mandatory prerequisite.

I think a better analogy is that understanding the physics of internal combustion engines can help you work on a car.

If you work on a car for long enough, you will self-develop a model for the physics, and if you play a given style of music for long enough you will self-develop a model for the music theory of that style.

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#145

Post by skyde »

tarsinge wrote: post #44

For years I made the error of learning music theory without enough ear training. You have to hear and feel the theory, it's not only intellectual. Then I found 2 exercises are all I needed for playing and composing music by ear: - Functional intervals / scale degrees: https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/220/functional... . If you start tone deaf like me checked "Fixed Key", learn all the intervals, then res…

thanks I tried the first one "Functional intervals / scale degrees:" and cant even get 50% correct with a choice of 2 notes.

What is wrong with me :)

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#146

Post by dtagames »

medler wrote: post #138
dtagames wrote: post #6

Two books I'll throw in here: Foundations of Diatonic Theory [0] which gives the simplest, modern, math-based explanations of how notes and chords relate. It's a college workbook that you write-in for the exercises. Really terrific. Also, not a theory book but the most important music learning book I've read: The Perfect Wrong Note [1]. Reading this permanently changed the way I approach learning the piano (or synth.…

For ages I’ve been looking for a text that would help me understand the structure of the diatonic scale. Foundations of Diatonic Theory looks exactly like the book I was convinced must exist but haven’t been able to find. Thank you!

I always thought, "Why can't I get a straight answer on this?" And that book had the answers.

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#147

Post by Rochus »

aidenn0 wrote: post #144
Rochus wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like it is helpful to know some details about your car engine for driving, but it's not a mandatory prerequisite.

I think a better analogy is that understanding the physics of internal combustion engines can help you work on a car. If you work on a car for long enough, you will self-develop a model for the physics, and if you play a given style of music for long enough you will self-develop a model for the music theory of that style.

Right, here is a selection of examples to which this model applies: http://rochus-keller.ch/?p=1153

but that's likely not what the fellow had in mind; learning and playing piano literature is a completely different thing.

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#148

Post by Yeroc »

maroonblazer wrote: post #101
shirleyquirk wrote: post #47

I grew up in a family of classical musicians, got a degree in music, and was briefly a professional classical musician myself. So my advice may be very out of touch with the experience of someone learning for the first time, but my experiences learning beyond European classical music theory left me feeling insulted. The basics of music theory are presented as though they are the foundations upon which all subsequent…

Also a classically trained, now jazz, musician and agree with all of this. Neely is good. I'd also recommend Music Matters on YouTube. His style is very easy to understand once you know the basics of notes and chords. He explains many of the different ways chords can fit together. His Bach 'tear downs' are absolutely fantastic. https://www.youtube.com/@MusicMattersGB

I second the Music Matters recommendation. The way he explains things and walks through the creation of various harmonies I find very illuminating.

Re: Ask HN: Tools to learn music theory?

#150

Post by ofalkaed »

smeej wrote: post #107
ofalkaed wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with flash cards is they don't actually help you with your problems which are remembering the theory and sight reading. Sight reading is more than the note names, it is also the action of moving your fingers and not just finding the note on the keyboard but keeping your hands in the right position so your others fingers can do what they need to do. So you set your metronome nice and slow and play through…

This is a super super super beginner question, but what's a good resource for learning the "correct" fingerings? I took 9 years of piano lessons, but I was very young (I quit when I was 12, 25+ years ago), so I have a vague memory that there's a "right" way to do things, but no idea where to go to re-learn it. I quit as soon as my parents would let me because I thought sight reading was supposed to be as easy as read…

Correct fingering is determined by context, where is that hand coming from and where is it going next on the keyboard? So you read/play through a few times and figure out the optimal fingering to make sure you are not tripping over your hands. Teachers tend not to explain this until the student points out that the correct fingering for that chord was different in another piece.
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