Earlier quoted context omitted.
considering the bent of this publication towards conservatives I think you are in fact getting it, you're just not primed for outrage
I didn't realize underage drinking was part of the conservative party platform.
Stanford’s war against its own students
251–260 of 269 posts
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#252"For the past several years, Stanford has required students to adhere to a Student Party Policy, which includes a highly detailed “Harm Reduction Plan” mandating multiple sober monitors and designated alcohol service areas, and prohibiting the serving of any hard liquor. Party hosts must also provide “EANABs,” or Equally Attractive Non-Alcoholic Beverages, to “contribute to an inclusive and inviting experience” for a…
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. They should have left this to the police and courts and, if she gets convicted, or pleads guilty, expel her. This also ensures there’s a proper public record for future schools or employers. I don’t know why the author of this piece tried to wave away a felony assault. And I’m saddened that a woman who got in to Stanford doesn’t believe in due process, but instead opts for vigilante justice based on a rumor. We…
Zero is the number of workplaces that would wait for a police report before terminating someone for throwing a beverage. The unreality of these kinds of message board discussions when it comes to getting the police involved to settle disputes always throws me. I mean, get a police report if you want to press charges, but Stanford is under absolutely no obligation to involve the police before threatening expulsion.
But the Police should have been involved too. This woman needed to have her viscousness memorialized and put on public record.
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
The UK is a heavily binge drinking and alcoholic country: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151102-why-do-the-briti... > I discovered that 2004 was Peak Booze: the year when Brits drank more than they had done for a century, and more than they have done in the decade since. Leading the way to this alcoholic apogee were those of us born around 1980. No other generation drank so much in their early 20s. Why us? > Ev…
As someone who comes from central Europe and lived in UK for a few years I say this - UK is not particularly alcoholic. It's the drinking culture which is terrible and I think it's due to 2 facts: - pubs close early - if you want a pub open longer than till 11 pm you need a more expensive license. I was told it's a remnant of a WWII policy when they needed workers ready in the morning to work in factories. Anyway the…
I've been to London several times for work and meeting extended family, and socializing almost always seemed to heavily revolve around alcohol there - let's go to the pub nearby for a couple pints, oh it's 3pm at this trade show let's start serving hard liquor and beer, fellow 20somethings entire free time spent while clubbing or over boozy brunches.
As a San Franciscan that's honestly insane - people I chat with talk more about which raves or ski slopes or state parks they're gunna check out and maybe have 1 strong IPA beer or some Soju and then call it a night.
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
yeah I agree, I've tried to follow that EANAB's example when throwing parties elsewhere too. I most certainly do not submit any party plan to anyone in advance
Having decent NABs on hand for parties has always been a polite and common-sense thing to do. "Equally Attractive" seems like a bit of a judgement call.
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
Zero is the number of workplaces that would wait for a police report before terminating someone for throwing a beverage. The unreality of these kinds of message board discussions when it comes to getting the police involved to settle disputes always throws me. I mean, get a police report if you want to press charges, but Stanford is under absolutely no obligation to involve the police before threatening expulsion.
Of course she should have been expelled. (And her parents are real pieces of sh* for suing the school. They should be apologizing for their daughter who made the school unsafe.) But the Police should have been involved too. This woman needed to have her viscousness memorialized and put on public record.
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think he was saying that the banning of parties with alcohol for a frat house accused of serving alcohol to minors is a mild punishment and not a notable event. I don't think he was saying that frat parties serving alcohol to minors is a non-issue. It's a pretty serious crime when you're not on a campus.
You're right, I misread. That negates my second paragraph. Again though, the article is not complaining about parties being banned, but about the process surrounding that decision: Dealing for months with lawyers and campus investigators drove Paulmeier, typically enthusiastic and motivated, into what he calls an “exhausted, burnt-out depression.” He told me he had gone through “a state of mental and physical exhaust…
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#258Sounds completely orthogonal to higher education. > “If I didn’t get into Stanford, I probably wasn’t going to go to college,” he told me. > he returned for his junior year in the fall of 2021 hoping to salvage a sense of community and camaraderie > host a party at his fraternity, Kappa Sigma, where he was now president Is he a student, or is he LARPing some idealised college experience he saw in a movie? > Party hos…
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your argument is basically the domino effect meme with Stanford Party Policy on one end and Global Culture on the other? I dunno about others but I definitely don't buy it - I think some people just like minding other people's business. To your point about training future leaders, there is a reason people don't start out training with live ammo. If every element of campus life could randomly and capriciously be escal…
> Your argument is basically the domino effect meme with Stanford Party Policy on one end and Global Culture on the other? this is an exaggerated straw-man version of my argument, but yes. colleges are a training ground for young people during their formative years, a place we send them to intentionally change their personalities and come into their own being away from their parents. One college isnt going to topple…
Let's first acknowledge there are many competing interests in these stories. For every student who is mad about being accused of cheating, there is a student (or maybe dozens) who are worried about people cheating who cheapen the degree and educational experience for everyone. So yes, it's sad we live in a society where grades and educational records are so important, that a single black mark will limit opportunities. On the other hand, we want to make sure that the institutions of higher education are fair and rigorous in their standards. That means when students violate those standards, consequences are served. When students violate standards and consequences are not served, that's a signal the standards are not as such.
Mistakes are okay. That doesn't mean mistakes should go unpunished, and that doesn't mean punishment is oppression.
Let's consider the evidence in the article. I assume this is the strongest evidence available, because if stronger evidence is out there, I question why the author didn't include it to support her piece.
There's not much substance to this article, but I think we don't have to look at the whole thing. There are really only a few key points that cut through the noise:
“I had young kids that were 18, 19 years old who are international asking me [Paulmeier], ‘Hey, can I talk to this attorney and tell them I drank a beer, or am I going to get my visa revoked?’ ”
Note, the piece never claims that there was no underage or unsafe drinking. The only claim actually made in the whole piece about the frat's expulsion was that it was overly harsh. Let's also remember that this isn't just any student. This is a student who took it upon himself to become the president of an organization, a position that comes with trust and responsibility, a position which has control and access to Stanford funds. This student admits "he worked closely with OCS to follow all its rules", so he knew or should have known better.So he's guilty.
“Any place that sets a bar so high that you have to be literally perfect to get there; and when you get here, if you don’t stay perfect, [Stanford] will punish you with every administrative resource they have for embarrassing them,”
This is where Paulmeier basically admits his guilt. His position is not "I did everything right and yet I am unfairly being held accountable for something I didn't do." Instead, it's "I made mistakes, and being held account to those mistakes is unfair." Paulmeier is framing his guilt at throwing ragers that harmed other students as he failed to be "literally perfect" because the bar is set so high. Do you get that? He feels the bar is set so high, he can't live up to the expectations of not throwing campus-sanctioned blowouts which land other students in the hospital. Paulmeier I guess just can't meet the high bar Stanford has set. It's not that he's guilty of egregiously violating campus standards. It's that the standards are so high, how could anyone reasonably be expected to adhere to them?So if I'm going to read between the lines, my inference is that Paulmeier is the kind of person who feels that he shouldn't be held responsible for his actions, and he's trying to make it seem like Stanford is oppressing him rather than the truth: he's being held accountable for bad decisions.
In my opinion, the worst thing Stanford could do for society is to treat such people that they are above reproach. We have too many of such people at the top echelons of our society, people for whom any semblance of accountability is treated as a grave affront to all of society. We see it in politics, where just this morning in the wee hours, the former POTUS threatened "death and destruction" for being held accountable for fraud he definitely committed. We nip that behavior in the bud by punishing it when it starts in college, not by coddling it until it metastasizes into a national cancer.
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So what do we do about this? Is it really a problem? Well, the lawyers have ideas:
implementing some of Ottilie’s ideas, such as opening up a student’s ability to reach out to witnesses, could have adverse side effects, such as a greater risk of witness intimidation.
Of course the Stanford educated lawyer's plan was to implement the US judicial system inside of Stanford. That's what would be best for his clients. But what would that mean for students? Does that mean every time a student is accused of cheating, the whole class is subpoenaed to testify in front of a Stanford grand jury? Where does it end? Do students then reserve the right to appeal their cheating case to SCOTUS?Which brings me to this whole "due process" claim. Due process doesn't mean all the process. This is the calling card of the guilty criminal; right next to "I didn't do it" is "due process wasn't followed, therefore I get away with my crimes" It's such a potent tactic because in the case where someone's rights really are being violated, you want to make sure that is corrected.
But very often it's the case that someone who is guilty will claim that if only some other process had been followed, which is the appropriate process, that the outcome would have been different. And that the outcome was negative is a reflection on the fact the process wasn't followed, and not the fact that the process found guilt. If you can delay the result by demanding more "due process", all you have to do to delay any result is to continually demand more process.
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This brings me to the Meyers case. This is a tragedy. If I had to read between the lines here, it would seem that a boy was accused of assaulting/raping a girl, and he went through a process, and he was cleared. Meyers seems to have had a problem with that, and assaulted him. This is disingenuously minimized as "spilling coffee" by those looking to push an angle, but it was alleged assault and injury which was alleged. Regardless of the circumstances, at minimum an investigation must be opened when such allegations are made, and the student under investigation should be notified. I believe that would be in following with due process afforded to Meyers, and not informing her that she was under investigation would have violated her due process.
The tragedy here is that Meyers ended her life when subjected to that process. The easy thing to do is to blame Stanford as the proximal cause, but that doesn't really explain the whole situation. Frankly, being less harsh here doesn't necessarily mean Meyers doesn't end up killing herself. The situation is so complex. I could just as easily say that Meyers would be alive if her friend hadn't been raped and assaulted and the rapist let off the hook, so the blame rests with the rapist. But that's unfair too, because again, it's more complex than that.
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Finally, Paulmeier wraps it up better than I could:
Paulmeier and other students and alumni told me they’re not asking for Stanford to make it easier for students to cheat, or worse, cause harm to others. All they want is for students to have the chance to make mistakes and learn from them—and sure, allow them to let loose a bit in the process.
Actually, Paulmeier and others, especially the lawyer that was hired, is asking for exactly that. Because what they want to do is to turn routine academic issues like misbehavior and cheating into huge legal battles. The class coordinator’s allegation, based not on her own observation but that of an anonymous student, was the only evidence against them, Ottilie said. But all three students were charged by OCS with cheating under the university’s honor code.
The students knew Ottilie ran his own law practice and reached out for his counsel. Ottilie agreed to take the students’ case pro bono and worked with two other alumni lawyers on their defense—recreating seating charts and finding over a dozen witnesses who were willing to testify to their innocence.
A student sees another student cheating and tells the teacher. The teacher tries to get to the bottom of it. All of a sudden, we've got lawyers descending on the classroom doing what they do best: they want to issue subpoenas for testimony, they want to start a war room with a murder board and crack team of specialists to comb the neighborhood for witnesses, etc. None of this will make cheating less likely. All it will do is insulate cheaters. The standard of proof for cheating shouldn't be "beyond a reasonable doubt". There should be due process, but we can't turn every cheating case into a capital crime and empanel a jury for it. The entire educational system would cease to function.Or go with the harm angle? Is Paulmeier asking for Stanford to make it easier for students to cause harm to others? Yes, emphatically he is. Because Paulmeier actually caused harm to other students. He abused his position of power and trust and authority to do that, even after he worked closely with Stanford to ensure that he wouldn't. He still did, and when he was caught, his response was not to accept responsibility, but to intone that it's the system itself that's the problem, not his behavior (although he admits his behavior has been problematic). It's not that he's wrong for his actions, it's that the system is oppressive for holding him accountable. What he wants to do is change the system so that people like him aren't held responsible when they use their position to harm others.
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My opinion of this piece is that it's very one sided. At a higher level though, it's very concerning to me that some people are trying so hard to make this into a culture war controversy. These situations are very complicated, and it's a sad that they go poorly for some students. On the other hand, other students are being protected by these processes. Could they be better? Yes. Emphatically. Is the subject of this piece salty because he got called out for being an irresponsible jerk who's decisions hurt people? Yes. Does this mean Stanford is at "war" with the student? No. And that's really the bottom line.
Re: Stanford’s war against its own students
#260I promise this gets back around: I've been trying to compare the various football codes (soccer, american, gaelic, australian, etc). Mostly as a way to try to make up new codes. Get a big chart together, find permutations, viola, new game. It's going okay-ish. However, when you start diving into this you run into where these games originated. And they mostly come out of the 'public' schools around London in the later…
> And they mostly come out of the 'public' schools around London in the later part of the 1700s. Yeah, but, . . . not all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marn_Grook https://store.museum.wa.gov.au/products/marngrook-the-long-a... ( allegedly )