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Leaving China

persuasion.community

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Re: Leaving China

#671

Post by dang »

fortuna86 wrote: post #665
dang wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You broke the site guidelines repeatedly and egregiously in this thread. We've had to warn you about this before, and if you keep it up we're going to have to ban you. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: it also looks like your account is on the verge of using HN primarily for ideological battle. That's not allowed…

With all due respect, i'm calmly pointing out another users' inflammatory comments and clear trolling. I wasn't overly polite to him, is the rule literally to take abuse and remain robotic in response? Not being cheeky, genuinely curious.

"Self-awareness is not your strong point" was an egregious personal attack. You can't do that here. Ditto for "You aren't as complicated as you think you are", "I'm pointing out what you are.", and plenty of other things you posted in this thread. If I look at those comments cumulatively, you crossed the line very badly. The fact that someone else was also behaving badly doesn't change that.

The rule is to stick to the rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) regardless of what someone else does. That's how rules work, no? No one's asking you to remain robotic, but you do need to remain respectful.

Re: Leaving China

#672

Post by onethought »

ninjin wrote: post #670
onethought wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually this is the first time you’ve mentioned masks, or different closing times. You did mention countries being different but never expanded on those differences, in any of those replies. But what you describe is still a lockdown, yes Japan could lower their spread without strict mandates. But it still told everyone to effectively stay inside. This whole thread is anti China. You said yourself, all the countries…

> Actually this is the first time you’ve mentioned masks, or different closing times. You did mention countries being different but never expanded on those differences, in any of those replies. Okay…? So you claim that you were unaware of these things prior to me stating them? Yet you argued that there was near global homogeneity in terms of responses? Grouping together Singapore, Japan, the UK, etc. Maybe I am old f…

No ad hominem intended. Apologises where you read that. I’m neither PRC apologist nor anti west. China saved millions of people and deserve credit for it. They made mistakes, but their approach was logical given the constraints they had.

You shouldn’t be disappointed in people challenging your ideas. It’s the ideas I’m challenging, I’m sure you’re a great person. Even if we disagree on some subjects.

Re: Leaving China

#673

Post by mechanical_bear »

dang wrote: post #653
mechanical_bear wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long have you worked for the CCP?

You broke the site guidelines egregiously with this (and also with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35233124 - we can't have users attacking other users based on where they're from). I actually did ban you, but changed my mind after I looked through your comment history and didn't see you having made a habit of this. You can't do this here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and the site guidelines…

I understand what you are saying.

My only comment on that matter would be that one need not reside in any particular location to work for the CCP, they have workers all over the world, from many different backgrounds. I wasn’t implying that he/she was of any particular ethnicity, race, or nationality - not have I denigrated such. To further that point, I then asked where they were from to gain perspective on their comments, there was nothing insulting meant in my asking. (I actually meant to go back and change the accusation of working for CCP comment, and overlooked it.) However, it did seem like they were a new account, with comments not made in good faith (imo), and they were pushing a distinct CCP narrative that I see often in my research in this topic.

Thank you for taking a balanced hand to moderation here. I understand it can’t be easy.

Re: Leaving China

#674

Post by dang »

mechanical_bear wrote: post #673
dang wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You broke the site guidelines egregiously with this (and also with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35233124 - we can't have users attacking other users based on where they're from). I actually did ban you, but changed my mind after I looked through your comment history and didn't see you having made a habit of this. You can't do this here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and the site guidelines…

I understand what you are saying. My only comment on that matter would be that one need not reside in any particular location to work for the CCP, they have workers all over the world, from many different backgrounds. I wasn’t implying that he/she was of any particular ethnicity, race, or nationality - not have I denigrated such. To further that point, I then asked where they were from to gain perspective on their co…

The relevant HN guideline covers that case:

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Internet users are far too quick to accuse others of manipulation/astroturfing/etc.* When we dig into the data we nearly always find that someone is simply posting from a different background than the majority here. Different backgrounds lead people to have different views. No doubt there does exist conscious manipulation and abuse; but the dangers of mob effects coming from users who feel like they're seeing that, and then gang up on someone who actually is just coming from a different background, are much more of a threat to the community.

* I mean on political/ideological questions and the like; user intuition tends to be more accurate when it comes to people promoting products and so on - though the two bleed together in the case of big corps and that's a separate thing again.

Re: Leaving China

#675

Post by mechanical_bear »

dang wrote: post #674
mechanical_bear wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you are saying. My only comment on that matter would be that one need not reside in any particular location to work for the CCP, they have workers all over the world, from many different backgrounds. I wasn’t implying that he/she was of any particular ethnicity, race, or nationality - not have I denigrated such. To further that point, I then asked where they were from to gain perspective on their co…

The relevant HN guideline covers that case: " Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Internet users are f…

Rgr. Thanks again for the balanced moderation.

Re: Leaving China

#676

Post by catothedev »

tomohelix wrote: post #4

What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful. The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be found. There will be a huge social disrupti…

I've spent years in both China and Vietnam.

I also used to believe the common phrase that Vietnam was a "mini China". Reality is different. It's no where near as repressive.

Real Christianity & Buddhism is all over the place.

Everyday people don't speak with the self-censorship I've seen in China (and I don't certainly don't censor myself the way I felt forced to in China).

The internet is no where near as censored (or softly censored) as in China! This is a night-and-day level of difference.

Ironically, in some regards, VN is more capitalist than the USA. Just go down any average street in Saigon and see how many entrepreneurs you find. And never saw 'chengguan' bossing people around in VN. Part of the reality is that communist policies failed so hard in VN after the communist takeover, many people had no choice but to stand-up-against-policy and be entrepreneurs regardless of official laws and that is baked into the culture now.

Part of the reason VN's communist party isn't as powerful as China's communist party is because it does not have as much resources. But I would argue that part of the reason is the government really doesn't have the desire to be anywhere near as heavy-handed as the CCP. At some level, Vietnam seems to me like 'one big family' with a certain level of warmth to it, whereas China is just too big with too many intra-China conflicts for Chinese people to extend trust to other Chinese people. In my experience, there is a much further sense of distance in relations with PRC Chinese people (not e.g. Taiwan Chinese) that is difficult to overcome.

People in the US/Europe forget that Vietnam had a border conflict with China following the France/VN US/VN conflicts -- the difference about the China conflict is that China truly does want to take over some of Vietnam's land for keeps -- this is understandably ingrained in everyday Vietnamese people's minds.

Everyday VN people are commonly quite welcoming to visually-obvious-foreigners, whereas everyday PRC Chinese people are often times quite wary.

Vietnam also operates within ASEAN. Singapore/Malaysia/Thailand/Indonesia/Philippines political opinions and security concerns impact Vietnam.

I would say things in VN have changed a bit since Nguyen Phu Trong's leadership and Covid (globally democracy on average has taken a step back during this timeframe), but I've come to realize that calling Vietnam a "mini China" misses many important points.

Re: Leaving China

#677

Post by chenster »

jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

> it’s a bastion of a mandarin-speaking democracy, or in software terms a hard fork of an alternate reality of what China could have been. It has cultivated its own culture, and retained elements of Chinese culture cancelled during the cultural revolution.

Precisely, I couldn't say it better.

Re: Leaving China

#678

Post by catothedev »

tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

If you want dense/affordable/good-public-transportation and you like east asia, I'd recommend Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Taipei, Kaosiung.

You can live in those places with far less political, language, thought-police concerns than mainland China.

Re: Leaving China

#679

Post by catothedev »

JCharante wrote: post #298
coupdejarnac wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might consider Vietnam. There's going to be a lot of growth and opportunities there for a while.

While there’s going to be a lot of growth a lot of the same things can be said about Vietnam. Foreigners will never win an argument against locals, some locals will die on a hill defending the 150-200 AQI for 5 months out of the year. I don’t mean this as advice to avoid Vietnam, but just that 1/2 the bad things said about China apply to most Asian countries.

In many major Chinese cities you literally cannot see the sun bc of air pollution. No major city in VN is this bad. Will it get worse? Maybe but I wouldn't necessarily expect it. VN people actually do get quite concerned about the quality of their food and, if air pollution started to become a visible problem, in places like HCMC, I doubt people (govt officials included) would be OK with that. The drive for money is hard but not quite as no-holds-barred as PRC.

Re: Leaving China

#680

Post by reducesuffering »

raspberry1337 wrote: post #536
throwaway2037 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving from Germany to Indonesia is a wild move! Did you move to Bali or somewhere else? "the West": This term is meaningless to me. Does this include Africa, South America, AUS/NS, Middle East? "Where there was once optimism and openness, there is growing political repression": In continental Europe? I don't think so. Please provide concrete examples.

"I don't think so. Please provide concrete examples." You would get fired in Sweden if you spoke against mass immigration just 15 years ago. The social democrats still ban people who have romantic relationships with an individual of the nationalist party. Working corporate in the west is about having the correct progressive opinions, dissent means you are an evil conspiracy theorist. Just 2 years ago it was evil and…

Where are you getting these facts? Sweden and the UK have the same per-capita murder rate, so Sweden being 1/7 the size of UK means 1/7 the total murders.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1315123/sweden-homicide-...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/288195/homicide-rate-uk/

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