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OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

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Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#241
post #22

Since OpenAI didn't release the parameter count of GPT-4, I've been wondering/doubting if it is really much bigger than GPT-3. The release of GPT-3.5 has shown that they've found ways of drastically cutting down compute costs (an order of magnitude) while maintaining or even improving the quality of the model's outputs. Perhaps the reason that they didn't release the specifics of GPT-4 might be in part due to them wa…

ChatGPT-4 is definitely slower than GPT-3.5 (and way slower than 3.5-turbo). What could be the reason for that other than much larger parameter count? I agree that the capabilities seem overhyped. In my subjective experience, 4 seems a little better than 3.5 but not by a huge amount. We just have OpenAI’s cherry-picked word that it‘s this incredible advance.

I disagree. It does much, much better on selected tasks. I cannot quite figure out how to describe what the difference "feels" like, but the performance is sometimes markedly different when feeding ChatGPT-3.5 and ChatGPT-4 the same prompt.

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#242
post #178

If you came here after only reading the headline, you missed what the complaint is actually about: It's not that GPT-4 is closed source. It's that access to `codex` model was pulled with only three days notice, and the model itself was not open-sourced. Since apparently a large number of researchers were writing papers which used that particular model, that means all of those research papers are now non-reproducible.…

>> An obvious thing to do would be to either open-source older models (including the weights) when retiring them; or possibly transfer them to an institution who see their role specifically as serving as an archive Another obvious thing to do is do your research on non-commercial or open source things that can not be taken away from you. Sorry, I don't mean for the snark present in that statement. The frustration lie…

I thought I must be going crazy until I saw your comment. This sounds like a bad research practice that probably shouldn't be reproduced to begin with.

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#243
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those suggestions would be very in-line with the original purpose of OpenAI. A purpose they are now actively hindering in the name of profit.

I think what most of the people here are missing is how big, how paranoid, and how influential the "AI alignment" movement is. To you it looks like they're being overly careful and paranoid, perhaps as an excuse to set up a monopoly silo to extract money. But a lot of the people the OpenAI researchers work closely with -- people deep in the "AI alignment" community -- are telling them that they're being wantonly reck…

> I think what most of the people here are missing is how big, how paranoid, and how influential the "AI alignment" movement is. To you it looks like they're being overly careful and paranoid, perhaps as an excuse to set up a monopoly silo to extract money. But a lot of the people the OpenAI researchers work closely with -- people deep in the "AI alignment" community -- are telling them that they're being wantonly reckless...

> There are people in that community -- people not working for a for-profit company -- who would, if they could, stop all AI research of any kind until we have rock-solid techniques to prevent an AI apocalypse. Most of those individuals have absolutely nothing commercial to gain from stopping AI research.

Wow, I can't believe I have never heard of the ai alignment forum before! This changes everything. Yet I am not shocked that some sort of elitism have taken over.

> GPT-4 was actually done back in August of last year. If their goal was to maximize profit, the obvious thing to do would be to release API access to it as soon as possible. But instead, they purposely delayed release for eight months, specifically in order to "cool down" the "arms race": to avoid introducing FOMO in other labs which would lead them to be less careful.

This fully affects my view on OpenAi if that is the case, do you have anything to support this that I can dig through?

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#244
post #178

If you came here after only reading the headline, you missed what the complaint is actually about: It's not that GPT-4 is closed source. It's that access to `codex` model was pulled with only three days notice, and the model itself was not open-sourced. Since apparently a large number of researchers were writing papers which used that particular model, that means all of those research papers are now non-reproducible.…

> we didn’t realize how important code-davinci-002 was to researchers, so we are keeping it going in our researcher access program: https://openai.com/form/researcher-access-program

> we are also providing researcher access to the base GPT-4 model!

https://twitter.com/sama/status/1638576434485825536

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#245
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those suggestions would be very in-line with the original purpose of OpenAI. A purpose they are now actively hindering in the name of profit.

I think what most of the people here are missing is how big, how paranoid, and how influential the "AI alignment" movement is. To you it looks like they're being overly careful and paranoid, perhaps as an excuse to set up a monopoly silo to extract money. But a lot of the people the OpenAI researchers work closely with -- people deep in the "AI alignment" community -- are telling them that they're being wantonly reck…

> But a lot of the people the OpenAI researchers work closely with -- people deep in the "AI alignment" community -- are telling them that they're being wantonly reckless, helping set the human race on a path for certain doom. There are people in that community -- people not working for a for-profit company -- who would, if they could, stop all AI research of any kind until we have rock-solid techniques to prevent an AI apocalypse. Most of those individuals have absolutely nothing commercial to gain from stopping AI research.

these people are delusional and I am sure the vast majority of them either work in AI-related fields or are at the very least very employable by wealthy AI producing companies so I would disagree that these people have "absolutely nothing commercial to gain". The pipeline of money to the typical "AI longtermist" is wide open. There is a lot of harm that is happening right now from AI, exploitation of workers, police departments rounding up innocent people tagged by "AI", personal information being sucked up without consent, training data completely secret, and none of that has to do with Skynet taking over, it has to do with the companies themselves. Of course they are using "longtermist" justifications to get away with current-term unethical behavior in the name of profit. It's very obvious if one just looks.

> So suppose you're an AI researcher at OpenAI. A large number of people you know and respect are telling you that you're driving the human race right towards a cliff. You don't 100% agree with their assessment, but it would be foolish to completely ignore them, wouldn't it?

If it's "foolish" to "completely ignore" AI longtermists, why is it somehow not foolish to not just completely ignore but also to actively fire whole departments of AI ethicists who are pointing out very tangible "right now" kinds of problems?

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#246
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are always financial incentives. A useful question to ask yourself is, "How would I know if I were wrong? What kind of evidence would convince me that a decision was not driven primarily by financial incentives?" If your "model" is equally compatible with all possible observations -- if anything that happens actually confirms the model rather than disproving it -- then it's not actually that useful as a model…

Applying your own reasoning, what evidence would convince you that every money-making industry is necessarily driven by profit?

First, I specifically said (emphasis added):

> There are people in that community -- people not working for a for-profit company -- who would, if they could, stop all AI research of any kind until we have rock-solid techniques to prevent an AI apocalypse. Most of those individuals have absolutely nothing commercial to gain from stopping AI research.

Dalewyn's response implicitly said that even these people have a financial incentive behind their arguments. At which point, I'm at a loss as to what to say: If you think such people are still only motivated by financial gain -- and that it's so obvious that you don't even need to bother providing any evidence -- what can I possibly say to convince you otherwise?

Maybe he missed the bit about "people not working for a for-profit company".

But to answer your question:

The question here is, given OpenAI's decisions wrt GPT-4 (namely not even sharing details about the architecture and size), what is the probability that it's primarily for the purpose of impairing competitors to extract rent?

With no additional information whatsoever, if OpenAI were a for-profit company, and if there were no alternate explanation, I'd say the rent explanation is pretty likely.

But then, it's a non-profit, which has shared a lot of data about its data in the past. That lowers the probability somewhat. Still, with no alternative explanation, the probability remains fairly high.

But, of course we have an alternate explanation: within the AI community, there is a significant set of voices telling them they're going to destroy the human race. So now we have two significant possibilities:

1. OpenAI are driven primarily by a desire to decrease competition to extract more rent

2. OpenAI's researchers, affected by people in their community who are warning of an AI apocalypse, are driven primarily by a desire to avoid that apocalypse.

I'd say without other information, both are about equally likely. We have to look for things in their behavior which are more compatible with one than another.

And behold, we have one: They withheld even mentioning GPT-4 for eight months. This lowered their profitability, which they wouldn't have done if they were primarily trying to extract rent.

So, I'd put the probabilities at 70% "mostly trying to avoid an AI apocalypse", 25% "mostly trying to make more money", 5% something I haven't thought of.

What would make #1 more probable in my mind? Well, the opposite: doing things which clearly extract more rent and also increase the risk of an AI apocalypse (by the standards of that community).

As you can see, I'm already convinced that profit is the default motive. What would convince me that in every industry, profit was the only possible motive? I mean, you'd have to somehow provide evidence that every single instance I've seen of people putting something else ahead of profit was illusory. Not impossible, but a pretty big task.

Hope that makes sense. :-)

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#247
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until the alignment movement begins to take seriously the idea that we already have misaligned artificial general intelligences I think they are best viewed as a convenient foil Paperclip maximizers exist, they're made not only of code but of people

Some of us do! Check out a whitepaper on that exact point: https://ai.objectives.institute/whitepaper It’s weird to have been working on a paper for almost a year and have it launch into this environment, but uptake has been good. My hope is that we will continue to see more nuance around different kinds of alignment risks in the near future. There’s a wide spectrum between biased statistical models and paperclip max…

Thanks! Looks like good work. I hope this idea continues to get traction:

> In some sense, we’re already living in a world of misaligned optimizers

I understand this is an academic paper given to nuance and understatement, but for any drive-by readers, this is true in an extremely literal sense, with very real consequences.

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A headstart doesn't matter unless you can keep it. The point is that there are many mort smart people and resources outside of OpenAI and there are inside of OpenAI. If they focus their efforts, they will easily catch up. A headstart is not a competitive moat like network effects are. Go and try to raise money for your startup from a VC and tell them "well, everyone is doing the same as us, but we started 6 months ea…

So OpenAI should just give up and release all their trade secrets? To what purpose?

That, or rename themselves to ClosedAI.

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#249
post #66

Historically, researchers at some of the biggest tech companies had permission to publish their results. Presumably it was mutually beneficial; many researchers held dual positions in academia and industry, and publishing cool models could attract good researchers to the company. But stuff got real. They discovered a path to super-human cognition that scales directly with money and computer chips. Now these companies…

Super-human cognition? Hard to say. GPT-4 does raise the possibility of a machine writing smarter text than a human. What perplexes me is that since GPT is a predictor, it shouldn’t be able to write the smartest text - it should write the average text (since that has the largest frequency in the training set). Yet this does not seem to be the case. Is it inevitable that despite the quality of the data, better models…

It's not that it's smarter, it's that it's faster. If I have to choose between a larger quantity of code or higher quality of code while keeping the time constant, then I'd prefer the former.

Re: OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on language models

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean pretty much all real engineering started with that time periods “hacking”/“tinkering” before thorough models and equations were derived. We had 200 years of tinkering with relatively modern steam engine technology before Carnot and Watt started just barely scratching the surface of the first principles of thermodynamics and engine efficiency. Even the eponymous Carnot cycle wasn’t rigorously defined mathematic…

It's fine to be hacking, if you're not making billions off the service which people expect some type of stability or baseline performance from, at least that's how I interpret what the parent is saying. Maybe it's easy enough for them to just copy the model, tweak, hack and play with it from there with little interruption. No one really knows at the moment.

Sorry, my writing was crap...

I meant to say that now the model is in production, it definitely needs to maintain and or improve performance...

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