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Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

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Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#271

Post by diarrhea »

solarkraft wrote: post #47
0xDEF wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Northern Europe runs on C# and .Net. I am not joking. There are more C# jobs in Denmark than Python, Node.js, Ruby, and PHP jobs combined.

It's kind of hard for me to mentally square that with the amount/types of publications that exist for it, though of course it makes sense on further thought. What I mean is that I found it very hard to find "interesting" stuff built with it. You get the official documentation and that's it - for .Net Framework, anyway. Few blog posts about issues and their solutions, cool demonstrations or just general musings. It's…

Great observation. Search results for C# are awful. Full of 2000s style, for-profit, consultancy-selling, lukewarm-quality blogs. None of the high grade stuff enthusiastic users from other ecosystems put out. Not to beat a dead horse, but Rust is a good, contrasting example here. In the case of C#, user generated content is written during work hours. It is a worker’s language. In some other ecosystems, content is written on weekends, by enthusiasts (who might not be employed in that ecosystems as there’s no jobs available…).

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#272

Post by kaba0 »

zip1234 wrote: post #64
nonethewiser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It better be at a 30GB install size.

A 2TB nvme drive is less than $200. If VS is saving significant dev time, people would install it even if much larger install.

Come on, my whole OS fits 3 times into that, let alone every single other programming language’s build tools with debug symbols, everything combined.

So what exactly does VS save you? Hell, I can’t even imagine what’s inside that.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#273

Post by pjmlp »

waboremo wrote: post #84
zip1234 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 2TB nvme drive is less than $200. If VS is saving significant dev time, people would install it even if much larger install.

I'm not sure it's 10x as nice as competitors, which is the context here. If it were just about space who cares, but when your competitor does the exact same at a much smaller size and ultimately better price too, it's a little confusing what is going on with VS.

The competitor doesn't ship a full OS SDK for all kinds of development.

Go see how much GB, Apple or Android development stacks require.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#274

Post by dingi »

LelouBil wrote: post #22
sylens wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is like finding enlightenment after having to figure out which third party package is best for every little thing in Node. Visual Studio is a pretty powerful IDE as well.

Jetbrains Rider is great for .NET too, although I didn't try backend developement with it.

Except botched C# style rules. Rider still insists on Java style guidelines for .net projects. And sometimes, it spawns a never ending background process that only way to get rid of is to restart the app. Otherwise, it's okay.

edit: been using Rider on Linux since a few years now

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#275

Post by pjmlp »

Alupis wrote: post #80
zip1234 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 2TB nvme drive is less than $200. If VS is saving significant dev time, people would install it even if much larger install.

I think people question why VS is so freaking huge when it's contemporaries are not. Most of that disk size is supposedly in the toolchain (requiring 2-60GB of disk space alone[1]). Why is this so big? Modern toolchains from other vendors are not this large. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/releases/2022...

I have spotted someone that has never done Apple, Google, UNIX or game console native development.

It turns out native code for all kinds of OS workloads take some space.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#276

Post by kaba0 »

0xDEF wrote: post #26
magicalhippo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ORM? EF Core is pretty good. We're moving to .Net, and I was surprised by how poor the built-in DB stuff is. It's like either assembly or Python, but nothing in the middle. That said I've also been impressed about how nice it is to get stuff going. I used C# back in the .Net 1.1 days and yeah massive difference in ergonomics.

>We're moving to .Net, and I was surprised by how poor the built-in DB stuff is Right now EF Core is probably the best ORM that has ever existed. What exactly is missing? Although for performance you would probably reach for something like Dapper but that is not an ORM.

Can someone familiar with both EF Core and the Java ecosystem’s Hibernate/etc describe how are they different?

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#277

Post by pjmlp »

magicalhippo wrote: post #21
cyral wrote: post #12

Been using .NET for years now for backend web development after having taken a break from C#. It is such an improvement over the old .NET framework. When I started building my first backend with it, I was surprised how much was included and "just worked". Need to add authentication? Few lines. OAuth? Also built in. Response caching? Yes. ORM? EF Core is pretty good. Need to use env variables to override your JSON con…

> ORM? EF Core is pretty good. We're moving to .Net, and I was surprised by how poor the built-in DB stuff is. It's like either assembly or Python, but nothing in the middle. That said I've also been impressed about how nice it is to get stuff going. I used C# back in the .Net 1.1 days and yeah massive difference in ergonomics.

I am just old fashioned, as much stored procedures as possible, why waste network traffic.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#278

Post by pjmlp »

atraac wrote: post #229
ThorsBane wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do the costs of running the .NET 7 codebase compare with running something open? I like .NET a lot, have worked with it a lot in the past. But when I tried my own startup, I picked node instead and don't really regret it. I'm getting back into .NET these days though at a new job again, and .NET 7 will be interesting to dive into. Still not sure I'd want to be that tightly-coupled to Microsoft subscriptions though…

.NET IS open and not really tied to any Microsoft Subscription. I really hate when people keep parroting that without understanding. Rider is nowadays a better IDE for C# and it's not owned by Microsoft. You can host it wherever because it runs wherever.

Nah, Rider only better on cross platform Web development, and even then it fails short for Blazor.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#279

Post by pjmlp »

mattmanser wrote: post #92
jiggawatts wrote: post #62

My big problem with .NET is that a lot of line-of-business apps were written using ASP.NET Web Forms, but there is no upgrade path other than “rewrite most of it”. It feels like the pain everyone went through upgrading from Python 2 to Python 3. It also doesn’t help that .NET Framework has its support cycle tied to the OS, and hence is 10+ years. This means that businesses can be lazy and just leave these old apps to…

The writing was on the wall a long, long time ago! These companies had 15 years to do it. And it was fairly easy to get webforms + MVC running side-by-side on the same site so you could gradually migrate. Too late for that now though, you can't run webforms + MVC Core side-by-side. You could put a load balancer in front of the old app and start moving end points to a new code base. It's akin to moaning that MS haven'…

The end result is that .NET Framework is the Python 2 of the .NET world, and a major slice of anything .NET that I happen to touch on for enterprise consulting.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#280

Post by pjmlp »

Loocid wrote: post #137
simooooo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been using Rider in Ubuntu for a year or so, and not really missed VS. Only once when looking into the identity UI templates which required some scaffolding stuff in VS.

I strongly recommend Rider, even for those using Windows. It's a great piece of software.

Why pay for half of the experience of IDE from the OS vendor, specially when having MSDN licenses already paid for?
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