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Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

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Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#41

Post by brushfoot »

nonethewiser wrote: post #34
rbanffy wrote: post #11

I am mostly a Python person, but I must confess I'm impressed by both modern .NET and Java's Spring Boot. I architect for two teams, one using Java, the other using C#, for building services and the amount of boilerplate code, that used to be a huge turnoff for me, has been impressively reduced. There's still a lot, but it's now more or less comparable to what you'd expect you'd end up with on a similar app built on,…

Isn’t there still lots of boilerplate, it’s just generated for you?

The boilerplate is pretty minimal nowadays. In 2020, C# introduced top-level statements, which removed a lot of the ceremony.

You used to have a class, and there would typically be a separate Startup.cs file. Today, this is a complete .cs file for creating an API:

    var builder = WebApplication.CreateBuilder(args);
    var app = builder.Build();

    app.MapGet("/", () => "Hello World!");

    app.Run();

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#42

Post by magicalhippo »

0xDEF wrote: post #26
magicalhippo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ORM? EF Core is pretty good. We're moving to .Net, and I was surprised by how poor the built-in DB stuff is. It's like either assembly or Python, but nothing in the middle. That said I've also been impressed about how nice it is to get stuff going. I used C# back in the .Net 1.1 days and yeah massive difference in ergonomics.

>We're moving to .Net, and I was surprised by how poor the built-in DB stuff is Right now EF Core is probably the best ORM that has ever existed. What exactly is missing? Although for performance you would probably reach for something like Dapper but that is not an ORM.

Well that was my point, either you're writing a lot of code yourself ("assembly"), or you use EF ("Python").

We're not used to something like EF, perhaps it would work for us. But debugging generated queries due to performance issues is something we'd like to avoid. For now the decision was made to not use EF.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#43

Post by older »

nonethewiser wrote: post #34
rbanffy wrote: post #11

I am mostly a Python person, but I must confess I'm impressed by both modern .NET and Java's Spring Boot. I architect for two teams, one using Java, the other using C#, for building services and the amount of boilerplate code, that used to be a huge turnoff for me, has been impressively reduced. There's still a lot, but it's now more or less comparable to what you'd expect you'd end up with on a similar app built on,…

Isn’t there still lots of boilerplate, it’s just generated for you?

"Hello world" is a one-liner Since .Net 6.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#44

Post by pyjarrett »

doodlesdev wrote: post #25
pyjarrett wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. .NET "Core" ... I tell myself "C is for Cross platform." This is usually what people seem like they mean now when they talk about ".NET". 2. .NET "Framework" ... I tell myself "F is for Former." This is the older, Windows specific version. 3. .NET "Standard" ... I tell myself "S is for Specification." This is just the spec which defines what Core and Framework must implement.

What about Mono and Unity?

"Mono is an open source implementation of Microsoft's .NET Framework." [1]

Unity looks like it uses its own fork of Mono, or IL2CPP, which is a fancy thing that converts the intermediate language produced by C# into C++ code, which it compiles. [2][3][4]

[1]: https://www.mono-project.com

[2]: https://docs.unity3d.com/2023.2/Documentation/Manual/overvie...

[3]: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/IL2CPP.html

[4]: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/Mono.html

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#45

Post by pavelbr »

pmoriarty wrote: post #23

As a fan of O'Caml, I have to ask: what's the status of F# on .NET? ...and is it used much compared to C#, or is its use at least growing, or is it stagnating/dying?

Seems to be about the same as it's ever been. Still being updated and worked on, and still very few people use it.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#46

Post by alexzeitler »

magicalhippo wrote: post #21
cyral wrote: post #12

Been using .NET for years now for backend web development after having taken a break from C#. It is such an improvement over the old .NET framework. When I started building my first backend with it, I was surprised how much was included and "just worked". Need to add authentication? Few lines. OAuth? Also built in. Response caching? Yes. ORM? EF Core is pretty good. Need to use env variables to override your JSON con…

> ORM? EF Core is pretty good. We're moving to .Net, and I was surprised by how poor the built-in DB stuff is. It's like either assembly or Python, but nothing in the middle. That said I've also been impressed about how nice it is to get stuff going. I used C# back in the .Net 1.1 days and yeah massive difference in ergonomics.

What would you like build-in db stuff to be like?

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#47

Post by solarkraft »

0xDEF wrote: post #10
hdlothia wrote: post #6

I love c# and dotnet. I've been holding off on flutter and praying Maui becomes a real thing

Northern Europe runs on C# and .Net. I am not joking. There are more C# jobs in Denmark than Python, Node.js, Ruby, and PHP jobs combined.

It's kind of hard for me to mentally square that with the amount/types of publications that exist for it, though of course it makes sense on further thought.

What I mean is that I found it very hard to find "interesting" stuff built with it. You get the official documentation and that's it - for .Net Framework, anyway. Few blog posts about issues and their solutions, cool demonstrations or just general musings. It's like people don't care. And maybe they don't - it's just their job, after all, and they can't wait to go home to their wives and kids rather than think about some technology more than they have to.

As a newcomer (forced through an apprenticeship) who does think about technology more than he has to I found this bewildering and demotivating.

Microsoft seems to have realized this and seems to have put a reasonable amount of effort into building a community around the new .Net and making it seem exciting/interesting rather than something that's just in a really slow death spiral. Oh, and building things that one can easily get excited about. Non-nullable types come to mind.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#48

Post by starik36 »

pyjarrett wrote: post #16
tiffanyh wrote: post #2

It’s a tired thing to say, but the “.NET” naming is so confusing on what’s what. Which is sad because there’s so much to like about .NET

1. .NET "Core" ... I tell myself "C is for Cross platform." This is usually what people seem like they mean now when they talk about ".NET". 2. .NET "Framework" ... I tell myself "F is for Former." This is the older, Windows specific version. 3. .NET "Standard" ... I tell myself "S is for Specification." This is just the spec which defines what Core and Framework must implement.

I think .NET "Standard" is deprecated. Per this article. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-future-of-net-stan...

Though reading through it, I am still confused.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#49

Post by nirav72 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #34
rbanffy wrote: post #11

I am mostly a Python person, but I must confess I'm impressed by both modern .NET and Java's Spring Boot. I architect for two teams, one using Java, the other using C#, for building services and the amount of boilerplate code, that used to be a huge turnoff for me, has been impressively reduced. There's still a lot, but it's now more or less comparable to what you'd expect you'd end up with on a similar app built on,…

Isn’t there still lots of boilerplate, it’s just generated for you?

Nope. Take a look at Minimal API in .net 6 and onwards.

Re: Understanding the .NET ecosystem: The evolution of .NET into .NET 7

#50

Post by pyjarrett »

pavelbr wrote: post #45
pmoriarty wrote: post #23

As a fan of O'Caml, I have to ask: what's the status of F# on .NET? ...and is it used much compared to C#, or is its use at least growing, or is it stagnating/dying?

Seems to be about the same as it's ever been. Still being updated and worked on, and still very few people use it.

> Still being updated and worked on

It is, hands down, my best experience working in a functional language. I do hobby work in it, and it seems super nice, but I'm not sure where everyone is.

> still very few people use it.

Looking at a chart of GitHub and StackOverflow usage[1], OCaml/F# seem almost steady compared to the other functional languages, my suspicion is that Rust absorbed a lot of programmers looking for functional concepts in programming languages.

[1]: https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/#y=mean&weights=issues%3...

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