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Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

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Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#21

Post by hef19898 »

bob1029 wrote: post #12
manmal wrote: post #5

A startup I’ve watched closely grew to 160 and it’s still unclear they will actually survive this. Early employees are used to the old, startup-y way of doing things, but that’s no longer feasible. I think there are actually many such points at which teams/companies change significantly. Going from 2 to 3, or 4 to 5 people can feel like a paradigm shift. Team communication often becomes too complex once the team grow…

> I think there are actually many such points at which teams/companies change significantly. Going from 2 to 3, or 4 to 5 people can feel like a paradigm shift. Team communication often becomes too complex once the team grows beyond 8. We are struggling to get beyond 10 right now. Every time we hire a new person it feels like resetting the entire org chart. The communication thing is 100% on target. At 8 people it fe…

I know a place that went from 200 to almost 900 over just a bit more than 18 months (VC money can be nice sometimes I guess). The new hires included some highly experienced, and thus less start-upy and older, people. Those were highered, across the org because you found them basically everywhere in small numbers, to help get the company ready for production and finalize development (my guess, it can also be just blind luck).

Then the whole thing got delayed, right around the time the new folks ended up, as part of a bunch of projects, exposing the sheer incompetence in some areas. Areas that are vital to get production of the ground. The delay led to a fight between the old and the new culture, and the delay allowed the old to close ranks with founders and clue less career management. As a result, the new culture lost, then the experienced new people left and / or got sidelined. As a result everything got delayed even more, and now VC money is close to run out.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#22

Post by wankle »

lordnacho wrote: post #11

When you join a small firm, you are joining the firm. When you join a large firm, you are joining the team. I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. The same happens at schools and universities: you might know your classmates on your course, but you don't know all the people at a university. Same goes if you're a sports fan. You might be a supporter, but your exp…

> I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military.

Did they say that they were specifically not loyal to country or was it simply omitted in their answer?

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#23

Post by ghaff »

adolph wrote: post #16
humanistbot wrote: post #6

https://enwp.org/Dunbar's_Number

There is some criticism of Dunbar which I can't evaluate. Even if the specifics are inaccurate within it, there seems to be some truth to how sets of humans scale. I like the Alex Komoroske presentation below about "coordination headwind" as an explanation that doesn't need evolutionary psychology to work. It is easy to understand and deep enough to be well worth paging through periodically. https://komoroske.com/sli…

A lot of the criticism seems to be around the exact number which indeed seems to vary based on the strength of connections and other factors. Some discussion here: https://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/27/dunbars-number-matters...

Obviously the dynamic of employees at a company (mostly) differ from a hunter-gatherer tribe or from an online gaming or other community.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#24

Post by lordnacho »

wankle wrote: post #22
lordnacho wrote: post #11

When you join a small firm, you are joining the firm. When you join a large firm, you are joining the team. I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. The same happens at schools and universities: you might know your classmates on your course, but you don't know all the people at a university. Same goes if you're a sports fan. You might be a supporter, but your exp…

> I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. Did they say that they were specifically not loyal to country or was it simply omitted in their answer?

Yeah he did. "I care about the actual guys I am around, not the idea of the Marines or America. Those are too abstract."

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#25

Post by bluedino »

raketenolli wrote: post #19
manmal wrote: post #5

A startup I’ve watched closely grew to 160 and it’s still unclear they will actually survive this. Early employees are used to the old, startup-y way of doing things, but that’s no longer feasible. I think there are actually many such points at which teams/companies change significantly. Going from 2 to 3, or 4 to 5 people can feel like a paradigm shift. Team communication often becomes too complex once the team grow…

I've noticed that e.g. over dinner only groups of 5 or smaller can keep one coherent discussion going; if you go to 6 or more people they will inevitably split up into subgroups. That's why I think meetings where people are supposed to discuss an issue and come to a shared understanding of something can only be at most 5 people.

"One pizza" team

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#27

Post by [deleted] »

wankle wrote: post #22
lordnacho wrote: post #11

When you join a small firm, you are joining the firm. When you join a large firm, you are joining the team. I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. The same happens at schools and universities: you might know your classmates on your course, but you don't know all the people at a university. Same goes if you're a sports fan. You might be a supporter, but your exp…

> I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. Did they say that they were specifically not loyal to country or was it simply omitted in their answer?

[deleted]

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#28

Post by wasmitnetzen »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #26

Once you hit 150 I think you're in the second "something weird" phase, the first happens once you pass about 50 or so.

My employer will probably pass 50 in a year or so, when I joined we were less than 10. I'll keep an eye out!

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#30

Post by objclxt »

sunsunsunsun wrote: post #20
rqtwteye wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally I have seen that from around 50 on people don’t communicate with the CEO anymore but through some middle managers. If these middle managers aren’t really good, the company starts splitting into different camps that don’t communicate anymore.

This has happened at my company that is now 35 people. Too many managers that have fractured communication. Getting things done was easy when there was 10 people.

> This has happened at my company that is now 35 people. Too many managers that have fractured communication.

How many managers do you have for this to be a problem at a company of 35?

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