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Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

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Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#11

Post by lordnacho »

When you join a small firm, you are joining the firm.

When you join a large firm, you are joining the team.

I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military.

The same happens at schools and universities: you might know your classmates on your course, but you don't know all the people at a university.

Same goes if you're a sports fan. You might be a supporter, but your experience depends a lot on who you're sat with. Ultras, those kinds of hardcore groups are rarely huge mobs.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#12

Post by bob1029 »

manmal wrote: post #5

A startup I’ve watched closely grew to 160 and it’s still unclear they will actually survive this. Early employees are used to the old, startup-y way of doing things, but that’s no longer feasible. I think there are actually many such points at which teams/companies change significantly. Going from 2 to 3, or 4 to 5 people can feel like a paradigm shift. Team communication often becomes too complex once the team grow…

> I think there are actually many such points at which teams/companies change significantly. Going from 2 to 3, or 4 to 5 people can feel like a paradigm shift. Team communication often becomes too complex once the team grows beyond 8.

We are struggling to get beyond 10 right now. Every time we hire a new person it feels like resetting the entire org chart. The communication thing is 100% on target. At 8 people it felt manageable. Once we got to 10 it was like someone flipped a goddamn switch somewhere. We added a small management layer but this comes at a cost (i.e. we probably need 15+ to justify it fully).

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#13

Post by rqtwteye »

lpapez wrote: post #9

Anecdotal but the first two companies I worked at both grew from around 70 when I joined to around 200 when I left them, and in both cases I attested the very thing this article is observing. Influential and capable people became disengaged and frustrated because they could not move things forward by force of will anymore, and morale dropped overall among everyone.

Anecdotally I have seen that from around 50 on people don’t communicate with the CEO anymore but through some middle managers. If these middle managers aren’t really good, the company starts splitting into different camps that don’t communicate anymore.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#14

Post by pclmulqdq »

lordnacho wrote: post #11

When you join a small firm, you are joining the firm. When you join a large firm, you are joining the team. I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. The same happens at schools and universities: you might know your classmates on your course, but you don't know all the people at a university. Same goes if you're a sports fan. You might be a supporter, but your exp…

"unit, corps, god, country"

My first job out of college was at a ~100 person firm that quickly grew to 200, when I left. The culture I was hoping to join was notably different when I got there (at 120 people) and especially when I left (at ~200). That culture change, and the different expectations, really surprised me at the time.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#16

Post by adolph »

humanistbot wrote: post #6

https://enwp.org/Dunbar's_Number

There is some criticism of Dunbar which I can't evaluate. Even if the specifics are inaccurate within it, there seems to be some truth to how sets of humans scale. I like the Alex Komoroske presentation below about "coordination headwind" as an explanation that doesn't need evolutionary psychology to work. It is easy to understand and deep enough to be well worth paging through periodically.

https://komoroske.com/slime-mold/

The ideas started when I was studying the emergent power dynamics of Wikipedia's user community in undergrad, and were also informed by participating in web standards. I believe they are not specific to any one context, but rather emerge inherently any time there are individuals with autonomy who care deeply. Instead of ignoring these dynamics, I think it's important to acknowledge and embrace them with a sense of compassion and openness.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#18

Post by dheera »

lordnacho wrote: post #11

When you join a small firm, you are joining the firm. When you join a large firm, you are joining the team. I asked a US Marine who he was loyal to, and he said his unit. Not his country or the military. The same happens at schools and universities: you might know your classmates on your course, but you don't know all the people at a university. Same goes if you're a sports fan. You might be a supporter, but your exp…

> When you join a large firm, you are joining the team.

Yes I think to a great degree because if you join a Beyond about 100-200 people the CEO is just a face on a webpage that takes credit for what you do (and you're happy with that as long as you're getting paid fairly for it).

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#19

Post by raketenolli »

manmal wrote: post #5

A startup I’ve watched closely grew to 160 and it’s still unclear they will actually survive this. Early employees are used to the old, startup-y way of doing things, but that’s no longer feasible. I think there are actually many such points at which teams/companies change significantly. Going from 2 to 3, or 4 to 5 people can feel like a paradigm shift. Team communication often becomes too complex once the team grow…

I've noticed that e.g. over dinner only groups of 5 or smaller can keep one coherent discussion going; if you go to 6 or more people they will inevitably split up into subgroups. That's why I think meetings where people are supposed to discuss an issue and come to a shared understanding of something can only be at most 5 people.

Re: Something weird happens to companies when they hit 150 people (2017)

#20

Post by sunsunsunsun »

rqtwteye wrote: post #13
lpapez wrote: post #9

Anecdotal but the first two companies I worked at both grew from around 70 when I joined to around 200 when I left them, and in both cases I attested the very thing this article is observing. Influential and capable people became disengaged and frustrated because they could not move things forward by force of will anymore, and morale dropped overall among everyone.

Anecdotally I have seen that from around 50 on people don’t communicate with the CEO anymore but through some middle managers. If these middle managers aren’t really good, the company starts splitting into different camps that don’t communicate anymore.

This has happened at my company that is now 35 people. Too many managers that have fractured communication. Getting things done was easy when there was 10 people.
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