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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#631

Post by sfmike »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #462
sfmike wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hard no. usa helped but taiwan themselves made TSMC's due to their work and family culture and studying and working hard their entire lives. To say Nvidia and AMD and Gigabyte and the numerous brands from Taiwan are due to USA is farfetched. It's actually more reasonable to say it's due to China or Malaysia/Thailand etc where the manufacturing is then USA.

They got all the know how from the US as a jump start. Plus loads of financial aid especially during the 90s. Sure, during the 2000s they moved ahead as they weren't stupid and didn't blow that chance, they're smart and hard working, but their rise is ultimately due to the US great interest in that island for military/strategic reasons.

Still really off the mark. Things like TSMC were started in a lonely garage in a warehouse district in Taipei. No USA help in sight. USA have given a few planes here and there but that's not even close to 1% of the support to have given Taiwan's rise. USA got all the know how from ancient China too. Financial aid is correlative not causative as a majority of countries receive it and don't rise like Taiwan has so it's A/B tested as not the reason. As an American it's egocentric of american's to think another place's rise is due to some abstract american propogandist support that really has no effect on Taiwan's rise.

Re: Leaving China

#632

Post by auggierose »

akira2501 wrote: post #422
auggierose wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With AI+capital on the manipulating side I am not sure there are any limits.

AI is not magic, neither is capital for that matter. To perform any function in the world, it needs some type of physical form or device to do so. These devices take capital to manufacture and maintain. They're also vulnerable to intentional damage. There are obvious limits.

Capital = physical

AI = control of how to wield the Capital and defend against intentional damage

What are the obvious limits?

Re: Leaving China

#633

Post by opinionsonly01 »

onethought wrote: post #619
opinionsonly01 wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Melbourne did lockdowns for effectively 4 months You claimed Singapore and Taiwan has 'extended' lockdowns. I called you out. Now you're back peddling and trying to justify your statement with "but but but melbourne, you didn't mention melbourne and they had long lockdown!!!" > It didn’t refuse vaccines, you can get them in HK, and Chinese are free to travel to HK. It does refuse, and clearly you're not from China…

No, my original point included Melbourne as well. Singapore and Taiwan both did lockdowns as well. Not as long as China true, so your point really is the semantics of length? No, I'm not from China, but that has little to do with any point I've made. Vaccines were never an option for Chinese, they had a locally made one that didn't work well enough, and they could have never secured the number required of mRNA. If it…

They were an option. China refused to approve Pfizer despite having distribution rights in HK/Macau/China, and manufacturing facilities to produce it in China. Instead opting for local vaccines.

You claim Singapore / Taiwan had extended lockdowns > This is false.

You claim China could never secure mRNA vaccines > This is false.

You claim Chinese are free to travel to HK (to get the vaccine) > This is false.

Re: Leaving China

#635

Post by RedCondor »

fortuna86 wrote: post #634
RedCondor wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hegelians don't "troll."

> I didn't ask who you claim to be, i'm pointing out what you are.

>Since the man of common sense makes his appeal to feeling, to an oracle within his breast, he is finished and done with anyone who does not agree; he only has to explain that he has nothing more to say to anyone who does not find and feel the same in himself. In other words, he tramples underfoot the roots of humanity. For it is in the nature of humanity to press onward to agreement with others; human nature only really exists in an achieved community of minds.

Phenomenology of Spirit (Oxford, 1979), p. 43.

Re: Leaving China

#636

Post by SkyMarshal »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #611
SkyMarshal wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crucial difference everyone overlooks is that an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky than a run-of-the-mill non-ideological dictatorship like those of SK and Taiwan. The core belief of the communist party is will to power - getting and keeping power by any means necessary. There is no balance of power, separation of powers, checks and balances, independent court system, separation of military f…

> an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky So east Germany, Germany and Italy (fascism), the Baltics, Czech, Slovakia, Moldova, Georgia (where Stalin came from), Romania (ciaucescu) etc. Have no hope of ever being democratic?

Almost all of those converted to liberal democracy after communism economically collapsed in the Soviet Union, and West Germany and Italy after a literal war forced them to.

If we could go back in time and not economically prop up communism in China, and let it collapse the same as the Soviet Union, then I would anticipate a similar outcome there too. But you have to let communism collapse and become totally discredited in order to achieve that outcome.

Re: Leaving China

#637

Post by SkyMarshal »

dragonwriter wrote: post #614
SkyMarshal wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crucial difference everyone overlooks is that an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky than a run-of-the-mill non-ideological dictatorship like those of SK and Taiwan. The core belief of the communist party is will to power - getting and keeping power by any means necessary. There is no balance of power, separation of powers, checks and balances, independent court system, separation of military f…

> The crucial difference everyone overlooks is that an ideological dictatorship like communism is more sticky than a run-of-the-mill non-ideological dictatorship like those of SK and Taiwan. There’s very little evidence that Leninism and its derivatives are any stickier than any other authoritarian system, and essentially all authoritarianism (and most non-authoritarian systems of government, too) appeals to some ide…

After the USSR collapsed, the CCP intensely studied why, looking for ways to avoid the same fate, and succeeded. That's one non-trivial bit of evidence.

And I don't consider nationalism an ideology, since it's never as philosophically developed as say communism or US liberal democracy. It's just a useful, easy, naturally occurring fallback for dictators looking for way to rally their population against the "other".

And you can argue till the cows come home about what Leninsim, Marxism, and Maoism are supposed to be, but what they actually become in reality is clear. Totalitarian.

Re: Leaving China

#638

Post by PestoDiRucola »

bernawil wrote: post #609
wolverine876 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I learned that historically, China has been many 'nations', with related but different languages - more like Europe than like the US. And I learned that every Chinese government has struggled to hold together these regional peoples under one central government. The current map of China is one variation of many, many historical maps, which vary considerably. (Ask the Tibetans, in particular.) It mi…

It's not that unique, really. It's quite the same as India. I guess it's harder for us westerners to appreciate Chinese diversity because they don't broadcast so much English content about themselves. If the European Union had been more successful and had a couple more generations totally immersed speaking English, you could imagine some Chinese people in the year 2123 saying 'wow, Europe is actually a whole Civiliza…

> That'd be true today in a timeline where Napoleon won.

Or a timeline in which the Roman Empire never collapsed. Which is what I think is a better comparison to China.

Re: Leaving China

#639

Post by PestoDiRucola »

TylerE wrote: post #566
wolverine876 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I learned that historically, China has been many 'nations', with related but different languages - more like Europe than like the US. And I learned that every Chinese government has struggled to hold together these regional peoples under one central government. The current map of China is one variation of many, many historical maps, which vary considerably. (Ask the Tibetans, in particular.) It mi…

This is true for more places than many realize. Japan, Italy, and Germany are all 19th century (in some cases very LATE 19th) inventions.

I don't know about Japan, but this is certainly not the case for Italy and Germany. Even though they might have started existing as political entities in the late 19th century, the idea of "Germany" or "Italy" existed long before that. To give you an example, both Dante and Machiavelli mention an idea of a unified state for Italians. Not to mention the Roman home province of "Italia" which corresponds more or less with today's Italy.

Re: Leaving China

#640

Post by fortuna86 »

RedCondor wrote: post #635
fortuna86 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't ask who you claim to be, i'm pointing out what you are.

>Since the man of common sense makes his appeal to feeling, to an oracle within his breast, he is finished and done with anyone who does not agree; he only has to explain that he has nothing more to say to anyone who does not find and feel the same in himself. In other words, he tramples underfoot the roots of humanity. For it is in the nature of humanity to press onward to agreement with others; human nature only re…

> Self-awareness is not your strong point

It's funny how i've said everything I need to say already. You aren't as complicated as you think you are.

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