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Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

thefp.com

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Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#11
post #5

And for what? Today, Iraq is struggling to rebuild itself. Iran and ISIS remain a serious threat. The Americans hoped to build a Jeffersonian republic in the heart of the Middle East, and failed. The whole thing seems like a horrible, tragic mistake. I disagree. This is a bold statement for someone who left Iraq fourteen years ago and never went back. Probably the current regime is better than Saddam. Is it so much b…

It's great that they actually found a victim of the war to speak up, but of course he has to be speaking _in favor_ of the war.

If he hadn't put that ridiculous "I disagree" after the obviously true explanation of the failure, this article would not have been published.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#12
When I was working in Afghanistan I met a decent number of interpreters and Afghani leaders that were former forced fighters. I even guarded one while he was being interviewed and jailed, he was the first of a few that I'd end up meeting. The story that sticks with me is the last one and I think will sit with me for the rest of my life.

I was back at my units "home" base where they spent most of a year. Recently US and, I believe, Georgian EOD troops were engaged in heavy fire outside of town and an IED exploded as they tried to defuse it. You hear a lot of these stories day to day so like the author I was pretty desensitized to hearing about people dying trying to do their jobs. Not a day later I was reassigned to the small jail that we had and I met a man who didn't speak English, had a gut but wasn't overweight, and who lacked any education beyond religion and farming. I kept him fed, kept him safe, made sure he had rec time, time in the bathroom etc... I could do basic communication with him through a combination of hand signals. Mostly though I had no way of having any real conversation with him.

HumInt came to visit and interview him. They had gathered his side of the story and were going back out to gather information based on what he told them. He was captured after detonating the IED that had killed the EOD troops just days before by connecting a battery to a buried cable. It became clear to me early on that this man did not have the know-how to create a projectile cone, the REX for the explosive material, or the electrical knowledge to determine the battery and wire gauge necessary to carry out this attack. I read through his jacket and understood he had lived mostly a farming life, he was devout in his religion (as most were in that area), and he had a family. The Taliban had approached him to carry out this attack, his gut was a combination of disease and malnutrition most likely which is why they targeted him. They offered him the chance to do this act in exchange for his family being taken care of.

A day or so later HumInt came back. They asked me a lot about how he was acting and I told them mostly normal, he'd been sleeping most of the day, he prayed as usual, and had asked for some religious items. They informed me that they had gone to his house with representatives from one of the units on our base and had found that his family had been killed. They had been debating on whether to tell him because he was surely going to the jail in Kabul where he would likely be hanged. They told him during the interview and I remember from that time until he left he was just mute. This will be how I forever remember the Taliban and sister groups like Al Queda.

> And yet.

> It is hard to express what it means, if you have lived under an authoritarian regime, to experience freedom. Those who have grown up with the privilege of liberty are lucky not to understand it—and the heavy price you are willing to pay for it if you have lived without it.

This sentence punches far above it's weight class.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#13
post #5

And for what? Today, Iraq is struggling to rebuild itself. Iran and ISIS remain a serious threat. The Americans hoped to build a Jeffersonian republic in the heart of the Middle East, and failed. The whole thing seems like a horrible, tragic mistake. I disagree. This is a bold statement for someone who left Iraq fourteen years ago and never went back. Probably the current regime is better than Saddam. Is it so much b…

[dead]

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#14
post #9
post #5

And for what? Today, Iraq is struggling to rebuild itself. Iran and ISIS remain a serious threat. The Americans hoped to build a Jeffersonian republic in the heart of the Middle East, and failed. The whole thing seems like a horrible, tragic mistake. I disagree. This is a bold statement for someone who left Iraq fourteen years ago and never went back. Probably the current regime is better than Saddam. Is it so much b…

The world is not clear-cut black and white. Few are completely bad or completely good. Maybe no-one is. Sanguinely, the world is realpolitik and the good must do some bad to increase good. Also the bad do some good in order that they may continue to do bad. On balance was it good? It's an open question. Should the world have let Saddam initiate an Iraq-Iran War II? Was he bluffing? We don't know -he's dead. Maybe cou…

> Bush and Obama are rehabilitated

I'm fairly sure that most of the leftists who complained about Bush back then have not rehabilitated him, they've just added more people to the front of the list.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#15

Washington Post Poll: Saddam Hussein and the Sept. 11 Attacks (2003) https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/s...

Incredible. A lot of people, both press, government, TV, and columnists, worked very hard to make sure the public was that misinformed.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#16
post #14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is not clear-cut black and white. Few are completely bad or completely good. Maybe no-one is. Sanguinely, the world is realpolitik and the good must do some bad to increase good. Also the bad do some good in order that they may continue to do bad. On balance was it good? It's an open question. Should the world have let Saddam initiate an Iraq-Iran War II? Was he bluffing? We don't know -he's dead. Maybe cou…

> Bush and Obama are rehabilitated I'm fairly sure that most of the leftists who complained about Bush back then have not rehabilitated him, they've just added more people to the front of the list.

Maybe in theory, in practice anything moved down the list basically is not on a list.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#17
post #6

[flagged]

I smell sarcasm, but still, you're not that wrong. The motivation absolutely matters - US Imperialism is much softer, even in it's war crimes, than Russian Imperialism that comes with genocide bundled. In the former case where it hurts is that they try to paint a rosy picture (freedom and democracy etc.) while committing war crimes / invading left and right for business interests, and that hypocrisy is very annoying. At the same time when the Russians invade, they're brutal, war crimes are part of their process. I'd take the former over the latter any day, even ideally neither should be a thing in the 2020s.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#18
post #12

When I was working in Afghanistan I met a decent number of interpreters and Afghani leaders that were former forced fighters. I even guarded one while he was being interviewed and jailed, he was the first of a few that I'd end up meeting. The story that sticks with me is the last one and I think will sit with me for the rest of my life. I was back at my units "home" base where they spent most of a year. Recently US a…

Thanks for the anecdote and your service. Sometimes there are situations where everyone is wrong. I just don't know what the answer is here.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#19
post #6

[flagged]

What are you trying to say here? Russia is intentionally kidnapping children and murdering innocent non-combatants in a campaign of terror to break the spirit of Ukraine. They're launching cruise missiles into apartments and hospitals. They told their own soldiers that the Ukrainian people wanted Russian occupation so badly that their army sent riot police instead of regular army when they made their first push toward Kyiv. The US made a lot of mistakes but the soldiers on the ground did the best they could to not harm people. In the invasion of Ukraine murder of noncombatants is so routine that it's a matter of course to mention it.

It's disingenuous to claim that the US and Russia are exactly the same and that they both fought for the same things in both wars. The war in Ukraine is a land grab for Putin to expand his power.

Re: Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. One Was My Brother

#20
The shortest answer to whataboutism on this topic is that the invasion of Iraq was also criminal (second time, not the first time). It was based on lies, achieved very little, displaced and killed millions. Please do not do the disgusting Russian thing of pretending that "we're only defending ourselves" or are otherwise justified in these actions.

Not being able to face historical facts and be honest is a major, major problem for the future. Again, to pick on Russia look at how many of them genuinely do not understand why almost all of Eastern Europe would gladly go back in time and suffocate baby Stalin with their bare hands, without thinking. Homo Sovieticus can only see the exaggerated glory of the Soviet Union without seeing the millions farmers starved to death in the Holodomor, or the hundreds of thousands tortured in KGB offices for absolutely no reason.

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