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Prostate cancer could be treated by destroying tumors with electric currents

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Prostate cancer could be treated by destroying tumors with electric currents

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second sentence merits millions of upvotes. Many health care provision systems don't invest in screening tests or other early-detection schemes, or they do make them available, but don't invest in raising awareness of their availability. I'm actually now at the age where I should start thinking about "What new periodic tests/checkups should you introduce within the next 5 years?" ... and at this point I'm still…

I don't know about "should", it's a conversation you should have without your doctor (at age 55-69) as it's not without risks (2/3 false positives, if you need a biopsy literature is 3% infection rate requiring hospitalization. Although the advent of prostate MRI may obviate some biopsies, it's still center specific. This will probably change but we don't have enough evidence yet to support this as screening (or to n…

> 2/3 false positives

It's a screening blood test which, when positive, makes you go get a more serious exam. So the effect of a false positive is that you get, say, an MRI. So at worst, 3x the required number of MRIs will be taken due to such screening. It's not even excessive irradiation of people.

> we don't have enough evidence yet to support this as screening

For the general population, you may be right, I'm not an epidemiologist. For people with a strong family history of prostate cancer it's a different story. The point is the different people need to consider different checkups based on their personal medical situation and family history.

> literature is 3% infection rate requiring hospitalization

Prostate cancer rarely requires hospitalization - unless you do nothing about it for so long that it metastasizes. Otherwise, treatment is typically as an outpatient. So that metric is also not really relevant I would say.

> PSA screening does not improve overall mortality

Again, wrong metric. You can wait until symptoms appear and still have very low chances of mortality, but the damage due to treatment is much more significant.

The point is to catch the prostate cancer early enough, that treatment can get rid of it with very little damage to surrounding tissue.

> this is not true in US, to a minimal extent in Canada

In the US, a large part of the population is not even cared for medically: There is no universal automatic coverage of residents.

Also - medical health providers can easily bring up arguments such as those you have brought up, to avoid screening even conditionally for various health risks.

So I believe you have an overly lenient evaluation of screening policies.

> The reason no one is pushing PSA screening on you is because most physicians don't believe it

Based on your questionable choice of arguments and facts, I am not very credulous that this statement is indeed true, and that a proper survey with the proper question and relevant information has been put to the relevant physicians.

At any rate, at least first link you gave, to the description of the issue by the AUA, is very saddening, because they also mis-represent the dilemma, and apparently aren't bothered about people's quality of life as long as they don't die. I've been told otherwise by more than one Eurologist, and with an insistence to the degree of making me set a phone calendar appointment several years from now to remind me to go get my first PSA blood test.

Re: Prostate cancer could be treated by destroying tumors with electric currents

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about "should", it's a conversation you should have without your doctor (at age 55-69) as it's not without risks (2/3 false positives, if you need a biopsy literature is 3% infection rate requiring hospitalization. Although the advent of prostate MRI may obviate some biopsies, it's still center specific. This will probably change but we don't have enough evidence yet to support this as screening (or to n…

> 2/3 false positives It's a screening blood test which, when positive, makes you go get a more serious exam. So the effect of a false positive is that you get, say, an MRI. So at worst, 3x the required number of MRIs will be taken due to such screening. It's not even excessive irradiation of people. > we don't have enough evidence yet to support this as screening For the general population, you may be right, I'm not…

> It's a screening blood test which, when positive, makes you go get a more serious exam. So the effect of a false positive is that you get, say, an MRI. So at worst, 3x the required number of MRIs will be taken due to such screening. It's not even excessive irradiation of people.

Actually it’s not, prostate MRI is still new and a positive PSA with negative MRI will still get a biopsy, some “centers of excellence” may practice differently but I trained in the highest volume prostate MRI center in North America and this is certainly not the case at the moment. There is insufficient evidence to support your claim that we can stop at MRI at this time.

> For people with a strong family history of prostate cancer it's a different story. The point is the different people need to consider different checkups based on their personal medical situation and family history.

This is included in our guidelines which are intended for average risk patients. There is insufficient evidence to come down hard for high risk patients (1st degree relative > Prostate cancer rarely requires hospitalization

This is the hospitalization rate for BIOPSY. Even metastatic prostate cancer rarely requires hospitalization.

> The point is to catch the prostate cancer early enough, that treatment can get rid of it with very little damage to surrounding tissue.

I’m not sure how you think this is true. Robotic prostatectomies and curative intent radiation are the standard of care for organ defined disease (representing 90-95% of cases detected WITHOUT screening, obviously higher with) and both carry significant risks of impotence and incotinence.

First line treatment of disseminated disease is androgen deprivation which actually isn’t as morbid as you claim.

> Also - medical health providers can easily bring up arguments such as those you have brought up, to avoid screening even conditionally for various health risks. So I believe you have an overly lenient evaluation of screening policies.

Every doctor practices evidence based medicine. The USPTF, AUA and EUA/ESUR all recommend against routine screening. There is a proposal right now in Europe to re-evaluate this recommendation given the emergence of prostate MRI and potential to avoid biopsy but again we’re getting into experimental/emerging areas hence why this is a /discussion/ with your provider and participating in /shared decision making/ rather than telling everyone “go get your PSA screen”.

I’m not sure why you’re calling every major societal guideline a questionable choice of evidence? We practice evidence based medicine not science based medicine.

PSA screening WAS a thing until studies came out showing harm and the USPTF changed their recommendation.

Some urologist like following PSA in average-risk patients because it’s a quick and easy billing visit. I assure you the physician societies all consider patient morbidity when making these recommendations, overall mortality is still the most important metric in medical research because it is the least subjective to bias. As discussed above the treatment options for disseminated disease have low morbidity and the treatment options for confined disease have similar-higher morbidity.

What is saddening about the AUA perspective or the dilemma the medical society is failing to understand? Can you provide any evidence to suggest prostate cancer screening reduces morbidity?

Re: Prostate cancer could be treated by destroying tumors with electric currents

#113
post #110

Oddly enough I've just been looking into a veterinary treatment method for superficial tumours based around cytostatica in combination with electric pulses - delivered by a pulse generator controlled by a Raspberry Pi - which are supposed to increase the efficacy of the cytostatica by 'electroporation' [1]. I'm mostly looking into this because the glossy site and the presentation given at my wife's vet clinic have a…

Please for the love of god tell me you're not testing this on animals and if you are, you have actual medical training?

Why do you assume that I am testing 'this' on animals? Why do you ask whether I have 'actual medical training'? How do you think the original product was developed?

Not so much in response to this rather grandstanding appeal to authority but just to describe how a product like this can be developed I can state that my wife is a veterinarian specialised in horses while I am a developer with a lot of experience in developing hard- and software. If we wanted to develop something like this we certainly could and maybe we will. Medical technology is not magic after all, the process which lies behind this system is known and has been researched [1] extensively - not by those who built the €25.000 unit, they just did what you insinuated we should not do.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biolog...

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