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YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

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Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#131

Post by marshray »

Tichy wrote: post #97
nirvana wrote: post #60

This incident strikes me as a glaring example of how broken web design is. A simple page like that should be easier and faster to create from scratch using a WYSIWYG tool, and then publish to a web platform that support it.... than copying the source and then editing it in a text editor. I know in the past such WYSIWYG tools were too rigid and thus we have a generation of designers that work in text.... but it just s…

I am not a Photoshop wiz, but isn't it a lot easier to change a pixel offset by 2 pixels in text than in photoshop?

How about we just not try to offset things in units of pixels on web pages?

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#132

Post by pbhjpbhj »

vacri wrote: post #123
eropple wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think hotlinking images and CSS is stealing bandwidth?

I'm sure all those 300-byte images have the 37signals servers at melting point. I don't think this is the horse you want to ride.

I'll take that pony ride.

Someone who's happy to steal from someone else just because that person is richer than them and they're only stealing little things still, IMO, lacks morally. With proviso's which aren't I don't think pertinent to this current situation (eg immediate life-preservation).

Your argument is basically the shoplifter's manifesto - the store is rich, I only took some of their stuff, it's barely a drop compared to their profits, etc..

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#133

Post by jaekwon »

veyron wrote: post #126
jasonlotito wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest question (and thank you for not using the term stealing!=)), but you listed 4 reasons. Just curious about where it crosses the line for you. If someone does A, is it still a grey area? Is it because of B? C? D? Personally, I see it as A. B, C, and D merely exasperate the situation, but without A, B, C, and D aren't an issue. Of course, the follow up is if it's because of B, C, and D that it isn't in a grey…

It's only vague inasfar as the words themselves are vague. "COPYING" is abused. RIAA and other organizations have really tried to grossly expand the definition and that has tainted the discussion. For the next paragraph, "COPYING" means literally using the same assets (or a digital replication). The line is drawn at "literally copying assets". Putting up your own assets that are inspired by another site isn't copying…

I don't think you can define "copying" clearly for this purpose. Is it still copying if a person is wedged in the replication loop? I think you're going to try to divide my hypothetical into two scenarios, and it's not going to be clear cut what the distinction is.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#134

Post by pnmahoney »

I don't think anyone has a final answer, but really _how close_ do designs have to be so as to lack integrity?

(assuming that they hadn't straight up lifted the CSS, images, button etc... which they did, which is clearly wrong.)

Ex: DHH says http://elance.com is inspiration, not theft. Ok.

Ex 2: A more difficult edge is http://coursekit.com I instantly recalled their design after seeing this scandal, although I'd initially taken note of it for its effectiveness. Their similarity to basecamp is on the front page only, and no assets stolen. (full disclosure: competitor, vaguely, for a hackathon-started education product I'm working on.)

Like, we can think up a MILLION edge cases. That's not the point. I'm really, really curious to hear what you guys think the difference IS.

and please, please, PLEASE don't respond to this with vitriol on other side. if you think there are problems happening here in the way we treat design, and how ppl react, just DON'T add to it in that way. reposted here b/c my q was downvote buried.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#135

Post by jaekwon »

gizmo wrote: post #80
betageek wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, it also seems a massive over reaction to what is, after all, a very small startup committing a victimless crime. Naming and shaming should be enough without dragging them through the streets of the web for a public stoning.

They are (a) copying other people's work, (b) passing it off as their own, (c) doing so for profit, and (d) unable to see why this is wrong. This isn't a gray area at all.

It's only gray from your system. There are other systems that people live (and think) in, regardless of what the law (and "common sense") says.

If you consider that (a) the act of ctrl-c/ctrl-v is fine for any material, (b) hosting content on your domain does not imply that you pass off the inspiration of the work as your own, (c) everybody already copies under the radar for profit to some extent, then (d) becomes an issue of perspective, like I said.

If you accept that copyright law may be morally or economically inferior to other systems, this should be gray to you.

If you accept that you want to copy your peers' works for your own profit, and you can accept that your peers have the same rights to your productions, then you are a Kopimi, and there's nothing wrong with that either from what I can tell, (except that society will burn you down in today's day & age. Think of it as a modern day witch hunt.)

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#136

Post by langsamer »

Why this this story on the front-page of HN? This provides very little quality content and discussion. This just seems to be propaganda. Yes, Curebit was in the wrong, admit it, move on. I'm sure there are more interesting things in the world of technology and startups than this. To quote PG: "I think HN's initial population of smart, mostly apolitical nerds has been diluted by the arrival of a lot of new users who are not as smart, and are thus more excited by shallow controversies."

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3105036

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#137

Post by gizmo »

jaekwon wrote: post #135
gizmo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are (a) copying other people's work, (b) passing it off as their own, (c) doing so for profit, and (d) unable to see why this is wrong. This isn't a gray area at all.

It's only gray from your system. There are other systems that people live (and think) in, regardless of what the law (and "common sense") says. If you consider that (a) the act of ctrl-c/ctrl-v is fine for any material, (b) hosting content on your domain does not imply that you pass off the inspiration of the work as your own, (c) everybody already copies under the radar for profit to some extent, then (d) becomes an…

I meant that it isn't a gray area, that it isn't a moral dilemma for me, but something that is overwhelmingly slanted one way. I don't consider it a moral absolute, and it's easy to imagine a society superior to ours where copying is considered OK.

I think this is completely different from the Kopimi philosophy, which argues that the rights of others to enjoy existing work (e.g. music, movies, art) outweigh the right of the IP holder to deny others the right to enjoy the work in question.

As for (b) I think that when you put something on your site you're implicitly claiming the work is your own, and it's your responsibility to give credit where due. They didn't.

Your argument against (c) - everybody else does it -, I find completely unpersuasive.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#138

Post by gizmo »

jasonlotito wrote: post #91
gizmo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are (a) copying other people's work, (b) passing it off as their own, (c) doing so for profit, and (d) unable to see why this is wrong. This isn't a gray area at all.

An honest question (and thank you for not using the term stealing!=)), but you listed 4 reasons. Just curious about where it crosses the line for you. If someone does A, is it still a grey area? Is it because of B? C? D? Personally, I see it as A. B, C, and D merely exasperate the situation, but without A, B, C, and D aren't an issue. Of course, the follow up is if it's because of B, C, and D that it isn't in a grey…

They're not in increasing badness.

I don't think copying other people's work (a) is particularly wrong, unless you do so for profit (c). Otherwise it falls under the banner of "fair use".

Taking credit for other people's work (b), even in a not-for-profit context is something I consider wrong. In combination with (c) only more-so.

I think (d) is also a real issue, because it signals a certain sense of oblivious righteousness. It's an attitude that, regardless of the specifics of the situation, I consider really harmful. When people criticize one's actions -- whatever the reason may be -- you got to take a step back and reflect for a moment. Try to understand the other point of view. Failing to do so is, I think, a moral failure.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#139

Post by kevinpet »

I don't see anything wrong with the following scenario:

- Hey, what should we do for this page? - What do you think of this 37signals page? - Yeah, that'd be great, throw up something like that, we'll polish it later.

However, that's not really the scenario here. There's a big difference between ripping off a style and layout (which is only declasse if people notice its a ripoff) and taking the actual code.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#140

Post by potatolicious »

VonLipwig wrote: post #72

What scares me most is how many people here seem to think it is OK or 'not that bad'. I don't know a designer who hasn't or doesn't draw inspiration from other websites. However, that process goes something like this... 1) Look at website. || 2) Assess what is good about the design || 3) Mock up own version. What a decent person doesn't do is rip the existing site. HTML + all. Tweak it slightly then publish it. What…

I'm as disturbed as you are.

Having seen the shenanigans of a bunch of Bay Area startups, and based on the tone of the responses in this thread, I'd gather that this quote from the article is a bit off base:

> "Your conversion rates or, you know, your credibility and integrity and the ability to have lunch in Silicon Valley ever again."

It would seem that, based on the tone here on HN, that these people will be able to have many, many more lunches in Silicon Valley. Hopefully they won't dine and dash.

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