YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals • Hacker News Board

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#61

Post by psykotic » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:21 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #54

veyron wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to complain that another company built a design largely influenced by yours. And that's a legitimate complaint, although the most you can do is say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" This is wholesale ripping off (in particular, indicated by the direct linking to 37signals site assets). I would be pissed off too if I found that my bandwidth was being used to serve another company's site. Esp…

I still don't see how any of this validates such an immature response from the copied company. Don't they have a PR guy or something to shut them up before they say things they might regret?

Why would they regret what they said? We should all be glad they called them out in such a public and unequivocal fashion. It means that scumbags might think twice next time before ripping off other people's work verbatim. Your response would have been more apropos if DHH's allegations had turned out premature, but the reality is that the extent of their plagiarism went much further than initially assumed.

Calling them out in no uncertain terms was a community service. Let's not quibble over vocabulary.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#62

Post by matt1 » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:28 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #60

This incident strikes me as a glaring example of how broken web design is. A simple page like that should be easier and faster to create from scratch using a WYSIWYG tool, and then publish to a web platform that support it.... than copying the source and then editing it in a text editor. I know in the past such WYSIWYG tools were too rigid and thus we have a generation of designers that work in text.... but it just s…

I've been slowly building a high fidelity WYSIWYG web design tool called Lean Designs that might interest you: http://www.leandesigns.com

It's hard to get folks to switch over to a less-than-complete web design tool (and building an unconstrained editor that generates quality HTML is a challenge), but I think it will get there eventually. I'd love to hear your feedback on the current product or advice on how to proceed long term.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#63

Post by gioele » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:30 PM UTC

Legal, not ethical question: in US, is it a copyright infringement to hot-link an image that resides on another server and belongs to another site?

Let me explain better: the file at `http://example.com/background.jpeg` is a wonderful image and indeed it is used on `http://example.com/index.html`. I run another site, example.net. I have my own `http://example.net/index.html` page and I decide to add a `http://example.com/background.jpeg alt="A wonderful landscape">` to it. Is this an infringement?

If it is, why? Because it has been "contextualised" in another site? Please note that I did not copy the file, nor I distributed it, I just made a reference to it. You did use it, you did download it, your browser on your computer did all the composition.

If hot-linking an is an infringement, then also distributing a bittorrent file is, the mechanism is very similar, just with one more level of indirection. And it is common option (mine as well) that the distribution of a bittorrent file does not constitute any kind of infringement by itself.

Do you know how US copyright law deals with this?

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#64

Post by earbitscom » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:30 PM UTC

jsavimbi wrote: post #57

derwildemomo wrote: post #10

I'm sorry, but am I the only one wondering about the ... tone of dhh's response? I mean, "fucking scumbags", is he like 14? He has every right to be upset, but the choice of words are in no way helpful. just saying..

Are you offended by the tone? What would you call a person who steals your ideas (no value), steals your work ($$$), steals your bandwidth (~$), passes it all off as their own and then brags about raising money, a venture which was probably aided in no small from the theft? And when caught redhanded, further insults you by offering you credit for your work? What would you call that person? I call those people scumbag…

The Pirate Bay

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#65

Post by jasonlotito » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

jsavimbi wrote: post #57

derwildemomo wrote: post #10

I'm sorry, but am I the only one wondering about the ... tone of dhh's response? I mean, "fucking scumbags", is he like 14? He has every right to be upset, but the choice of words are in no way helpful. just saying..

Are you offended by the tone? What would you call a person who steals your ideas (no value), steals your work ($$$), steals your bandwidth (~$), passes it all off as their own and then brags about raising money, a venture which was probably aided in no small from the theft? And when caught redhanded, further insults you by offering you credit for your work? What would you call that person? I call those people scumbag…

They didn't steal anything. I thought we've discussed this enough already, what with RIAA/MPAA's attempts to redefine copyright infringement as thievery. Hell, they didn't even steal bandwidth. Linking is not theft. It might be something else, but it's not stealing.

That, more than anything, pisses me off about this. That somehow the RIAA is wrong when it calls people infringing it's copyright thieves, but when it's one of our own getting hurt, we hang the culprits out to dry.

Call them scumbags. Get all indignant and tweet about it to your followers and whine to the 'interwebz.' But at least have the courtesy to be truthful and accurate. Otherwise, your just a scummy.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#66

Post by nfm » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #60

This incident strikes me as a glaring example of how broken web design is. A simple page like that should be easier and faster to create from scratch using a WYSIWYG tool, and then publish to a web platform that support it.... than copying the source and then editing it in a text editor. I know in the past such WYSIWYG tools were too rigid and thus we have a generation of designers that work in text.... but it just s…

A simple page like that should be easier and faster to create from scratch using a WYSIWYG tool...

I'd argue that landing pages are the most important and most complex pages to get right.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#67

Post by yobbobandana » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

Please do not conflate stealing with copying.

When something is stolen, the original owner no longer has posession of the stolen object. If the story were about money or physical property, "stealing" would be appropriate. It is not.

The word "copying" is quite adequate. In this case, direct copying is obviously poor behaviour. It betrays a lack of capability on the part of the copyer. This story would have had the same emotional impact, had it used the correct term.

Using the word "stealing" mires the story in the intricacies of digital copyright debate, which is not what this is about. It is about a startup not doing its own work, and thus demonstrating inability.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#68

Post by kristenlee » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

They even copied the pricing page verbatim, I have personally incorporated some 37signals design elements in my own websites but nothing to this extent. 37signals is a bit hypocritical in my opinion because they brag about their design practices and then whine when someone copies it, either you're an open company sharing your inner-workings with the world or you're not, they can't have it both ways.

http://www.curebit.com/pricing

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#69

Post by protomyth » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:37 PM UTC

If 37 Signals wanted to point out how it is not a costless transgression, they could send and invoice for the data transfer of the image at Amazon rates. More work than value.

I am just struck by the fact that they thought no one would notice. It just seems like one of those judgement things that could be a red flag for future direction.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#70

Post by dctoedt » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 9:38 PM UTC

gioele wrote: post #63

Legal, not ethical question: in US, is it a copyright infringement to hot-link an image that resides on another server and belongs to another site? Let me explain better: the file at ` http://example.com/background.jpeg` is a wonderful image and indeed it is used on ` http://example.com/index.html` . I run another site, example.net. I have my own ` http://example.net/index.html` page and I decide to add a ` http://ex…

I just did a quick search and couldn't find any court cases directly on point. Three possible arguments come to mind:

Alternative 1: By making your file available via the Web, you implicitly consented to having anyone download it who wants to do so, even via hot-linking, therefore there's no infringement.

Alternative 2: It's established custom that the implicit consent applies only to people who are downloading the whole page, not individual images --- therefore you didn't implicitly consent to hot-linking, therefore whoever downloads your content that way is an infringer, therefore the hot-linker is liable for contributory infringement or perhaps inducement of infringement.

Alternative 3: The person who created a page including hot-linked images, etc., has thereby created an unauthorized, and therefore infringing, derivative work [1]. (This assumes the hot-linked content is copyrightable.)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work#Definition