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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#401

Post by robomartin »

RedCondor wrote: post #368
robomartin wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S., to save themselves from China. Y'all live in your own little reality.

> I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S

Second, if you studied Logic at all (obviously not) you would understand that attacking the source is one of the fundamental logical fallacies. In other words, you have no point at all. You can't insult Alvarez and point to House.gov and invalidate what they are saying.

And, of course, calling a woman trying hard to make a difference in LATAM a "worm" is really classy on your part.

Por favor, educate porque realmente no tenes idea de lo que esta pasando en America Latina. Ni idea.

https://www.clarin.com/politica/avance-chino-neuquen-anos-im...

https://www.clarin.com/economia/the-economist-argentina-desa...

https://www.clarin.com/new-york-times-international-weekly/e...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187046541...

Etc.

Re: Leaving China

#402

Post by antondd »

rippercushions wrote: post #323
antondd wrote: post #210

Warning: this thread is very likely to be heavily astroturfed by Chinese influence operations. This is exactly the type of question and discussion that provides a perfect opportunity to change or chip at your opinion on China. Hence: - “Taiwan is acqshually a dictatorship” - “The integration of HK was managed extremely well” - “China may have X, but whatabout Y in the US/decadent West/Europe” - “That’s it, I’m moving…

Citation needed: I'm not seeing a single comment claiming any of those. (Except noting that Taiwan was a dictatorship, but while it was, it's not one anymore.)

Plenty.

- A supposed Latin American account; only comments (whitewashing really) are on posts, issues or themes related to China - https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=RedCondor

- An account with no comments elsewhere, bar this thread, commenting on how they want to move to China because: affordable housing, "great Chinese society", "going to let go off freedoms, but whatabout public shootings in the US", etc etc. etc. This is the identical messaging to what China is using on other SM platforms - https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tiny_ta

- A Chinese / Chinese nationalist's account. If you look through their comments you see they leave mostly political comments with the themes of "russia is winning" (China has been following russia's propaganda almost in almost a complete lockstep.), "USA has not right to intervene vis-a-vis Taiwan", "US elite", posting garbage from "resources largely excluded from the American mainstream" (as usual), 'conflict in Ukraine'. They left comments in this thread as well (a sad attempt at whitewashing Tiannamen). This is more relevant, however: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=xtian&next=34628768#...

Now back to this thread. This is a curious case of an issue being relevant from both internal and external angles. The former - like I said before, the aim is to influence you. The latter - anyone within China who is contemplating to leave the country, just like the author is doing. China has been known to focus heavily on retaining people with technical skills within the country and also campaigning for skilled Chinese nationals to return back 'home'.

Chinese influence operations have been detected everywhere: from 4chan boards to youtube videos and [insert your social media platform here]. What would make HN an exception?

Re: Leaving China

#403

Post by throwawaymaths »

ren_engineer wrote: post #80
FpUser wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things do change over the time. And if you are so willing to look back I am sure you'll find enough trash in a history of your own country.

I mean change in the talking point at the time that if we just kept throwing money at China they'd magically become a democracy. As long as the CCP is in charge that's not happening and should have been clear based off Tiananmen. Allowing them into the WTO and continuing to trade with them just made their power stronger. Going to be seen as a huge blunder historically

> Allowing them into the WTO and continuing to trade with them just made their power stronger.

Eh, it could have worked. Not that hu jiantao is a saint or anything but it's pretty clear that he was unhappy with the direction that china is going down and blindsided by what xi has unexpectedly turned in to.

Re: Leaving China

#404

Post by hayst4ck »

fortuna86 wrote: post #335
tatrajim wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to agree, from study in Taiwan, life in the PRC, Hong Kong, and South Korea over decades: democracy in Taiwan is healthier than that in the U.S. For the skeptical, check out videos of how ballots are counted in Taiwan. Individual ballots are lifted out on the ballot box, one-by-one, and held up for any and all observers to verify. Compare this to how the matter is typically conducted in the U.S., in near-secrecy…

every single election in the US is subject to a complete audit after the fact. counting quickly and verifying accurately after the fact are not mutually exclusive.

I think you are oriented for defending the American election. I think a better way to orient is to compare how Taiwanese elections are run to how American elections are run.

My assertion is that Taiwanese elections are much more simple and therefore much more understandable and much more trustable. American elections might be cheaper per capita.

If we are choosing a method of elections that is more complex and results in less trust, why are we doing it that way?

Election day isn't even a holiday.

Re: Leaving China

#405

Post by throwawaymaths »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #189
ren_engineer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean change in the talking point at the time that if we just kept throwing money at China they'd magically become a democracy. As long as the CCP is in charge that's not happening and should have been clear based off Tiananmen. Allowing them into the WTO and continuing to trade with them just made their power stronger. Going to be seen as a huge blunder historically

Completely agree. There was even historical evidence that narrative was wrong and that an authoritarian government could co-exist with an industrial economy - pre-WWII Germany and Japan. Development, industrialization, and capitalism don’t automatically bring democracy, freedoms, and political liberalization. That was all just a BS fiction foisted on the US public and policy class by voracious banks, corps, and their…

But consider that economic development helped turn south korea and Taiwan from brutal dictatorships to relatively stable and sustainable democracies. It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China, and it looked like there was buy-in and progress for an (if slow) gradual bringing into the fold process that suddenly t reversed course in 2016-ish

Re: Leaving China

#406

Post by RedCondor »

robomartin wrote: post #401
RedCondor wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S., to save themselves from China. Y'all live in your own little reality.

> I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S Second, if you studied Logic at all (obviously not) you would understand that attacking the source is one of the fundamental logical fallacies. In other words, you have no point at all. You can't insult Alvarez and point to House.gov and invalidate what they are…

This is so funny to me.

Good luck with the whole "empire in decline" coping process.

Re: Leaving China

#407

Post by onethought »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #400
onethought wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Taiwan, HK, Singapore, and Melbourne all did the same thing, extended lockdowns. This wasn't autocracy, this was logical health policy: Do you overwhelm hospitals, potentially causing them to fail, or do you limit personal freedom? That's the question that they had to answer. China had the added complication of not having a vaccinated population. Partly due to them having too many people, partly due to their popu…

Taiwan, SH, MB did not do batshit insane things like spraying bleach on the streets, dna swab testing imported fish, metal vehicle surfaces, not to mention welding doors of apartment complexes shut, barricading entire neighborhoods, requiring full neighborhoods to take pcr tests en masse, quarantine camps, etc.

Oh you're upset about the testing fish. Agree, that's crazy, we should all be up in arms about the unnecessary fish testing!

Melbourne, 100% did lock people in their apartments, they didn't used welders, just Police, Guns, and force. They also required mass PCR tests, and had Quarantine Camps (though they used hotels).

Re: Leaving China

#408

Post by physicles »

I've got some years in China. I speak Chinese, I'm eating a jianbing[1] as I write this. Didn't leave during the three years of zero covid. Reopening has changed everything about daily life in the best way.

But I'm also looking for a way out. For the reasons outlined in the article, yes, and others. General sentiment toward foreigners has rebounded a bit since the early days of the pandemic, but it's pretty clear that the government would like all the Americans, Canadians and Brits to kindly GTFO. And everyone else seems to be leaving: I lost about half my friends in the last two years.

My (privileged) problem is that I can't stomach the idea of moving back to the US. I moved here because I wanted to do something different with my life; the idea of living in the US again makes me feel like life would be over. Friends are moving to Singapore, Bangkok, Bali, Berlin, so I'll likely end up following them. Five years ago HK or Taipei might've been good options, but not these days.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jianbing_guozi

Re: Leaving China

#409

Post by specproc »

maskedinvader wrote: post #129

Can we at HN at-least refer to the author as immigrant as opposed to expats? what's an expat anyways ? why does the western world to get to make these tiers where they are expats but arabs, asians, africans etc are all immigrants ?

I live outside my home country, and have done for 15 years. I personally dislike "expat", as for me it conjures up an image of a particular sort of person. People can describe themselves however they like though.

Re: Leaving China

#410

Post by onethought »

ninjin wrote: post #394
onethought wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Taiwan, HK, Singapore, and Melbourne all did the same thing, extended lockdowns. This wasn't autocracy, this was logical health policy: Do you overwhelm hospitals, potentially causing them to fail, or do you limit personal freedom? That's the question that they had to answer. China had the added complication of not having a vaccinated population. Partly due to them having too many people, partly due to their popu…

> This wasn't autocracy, this was logical health policy: Do you overwhelm hospitals, potentially causing them to fail, or do you limit personal freedom? That's the question that they had to answer. Except, the choice was nowhere as binary as you present and/or perceive it. If you look across the world you will see many different responses to the very same problem, but with different answers based on political, cultur…

I didn't say it was anything to do with being "Morally weak".

And you didn't see a "many different responses" -- you saw 1: Lockdowns. The whole world did them. Where they didn't do them, hospitals got trashed and lots of people died.

Lockdowns ended when vaccines began, China never got that option, because its population didn't take up any of the vaccines to a high enough percentage. Also, there was never enough mRNA vaccines available to supply the whole world + china, until recently (maybe still not even now).

It 100% was as binary as I present it. Italy, UK, Canada, US, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Korea... the list goes on: They all did lockdowns to some degree to slow spread, and help their hospitals. It had nothing to do with culture or politics... except in the US.

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