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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#391

Post by robomartin »

imiric wrote: post #223
robomartin wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think GP is delusional, but you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason, right? US interventions in Latin American affairs are well documented[1]. You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. It doesn't seem you learned much from your time there, as this history is discussed openly and known in detail, from school children…

> you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason

I am stating an absolute fact:

In LATAM, blaming others for everything is a national sport. And the US is a favorite bad guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in person in the context of social gatherings, local news and even government/political party communications.

The point is they blame it all on the US. Always.

I did not say the US and other nations have no fault at all. There are subtle and not-so-subtle dynamics at play here.

It's funny how is never their fault. Ever. I guess these are all perfectly run nations and big-bad-USA comes in and fucks them up all the time. Otherwise, it's pink unicorns and bubble-gum for everyone. Right.

World politics being what they are, yes, of course, countries will take advantage of each other when possible. There is no way to claim any nation is without fault in any comparison. Today, China is taking advantage of LATAM in more ways than one...and the people actually think it is a good thing.

The other thing you have to remember is that LATAM governments have been corrupt forever. Entire generations of political families have enriched themselves and their extended circles at the expense of the people and countries. They make deals with countries like the US and international corporations and then turn-around and royally shaft the entire nation. The easiest way to explain things not working when you steal hundreds of millions of dollars and ruin the country is to blame others.

Stories abound of LATAM governments inviting external investment only to later nationalize the companies boosted by this investment and kicking the investors out. They appoint brothers, cousins, family members, extended allies, military leaders to run and pillage the companies and enrich the ecosystem that supports them. Then they turn around and blame others, the US, the IMF, anyone.

I mean, the military government of Argentina invented an entire war over islands nobody gave a shit about just to defocus from the horrors they created.

So, yes, blaming the US for everything isn't only unfair, it's stupid. These countries would have done far better over time had they made an effort to create solid lasting partnerships with the US. Quite a few of these countries could have been manufacturing hubs for world products. That requires focus, hard work, dedication, stability and more. The US and Europe would have gladly outsourced such work to LATAM nations. It didn't happen because the corruption in these nations turned them into sad circus acts everyone took advantage of whenever they could. I know it hurts to put it this way, yet this is the truth.

Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it, the only people who are going to engage with you are those who are going to ensure ROI by taking every possible advantage. And you have zero negotiating power. Once again, I point to what China is doing in LATAM.

> You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement.

Not kicking that can so Spain at all. Spain's legacy is a culture of corruption and a range of social issues Gloria Alvarez discusses in detail in the video I posted. I have not been able to find a version in English, sorry.

Re: Leaving China

#392

Post by thowieruoi3243 »

jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

> it’s a bastion of a mandarin-speaking democracy, or in software terms a hard fork of an alternate reality of what China could have been.

I don't want to reduce what you've said, but the fact is that Taiwan grew rich because of US support that helped integrate it into the global economy, and that wouldn't have come without its opposition to the mainland.

Similarly, China wouldn't have grown rich had it not been a pawn against USSR. India plans on doing the same wrt to China, but that country, like Africa, is too deeply colonized (likewise, with a despicable morally corrupt elite) to do anything of value to its own people IMO.

People underestimate the power of the Anglo-Empire which the British passed over to the Americans, one they continue to run to this day, without so much as a squeak from the mainstream.

Given that the West is banking on India to do their bidding, I doubt anyone will halt China's growth (regardless of what 'expats', who often both fetish-ize and dehumanize Asians, think).

Re: Leaving China

#393

Post by h11h »

scrubs wrote: post #97
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

Although off topic from the original post, would you entertain this question? What's Taiwan's position on integration with China? What does Taiwan want for itself? I'd like to hear more about that minus American and Chinese input.

Opinion polls: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963

A strong majority want to maintain the status quo or gradually move toward independence. Very few want unification. It's important to understand that China promises to invade if Taiwan declares independence (the Anti-Secession Law requires that response), which means many people would ideally prefer independence but in practice support the status quo because de facto independence (the status quo) is better than being invaded. Both sides of Taiwanese politics formally support the status quo, although the DPP has stronger pro-independence leanings.

Taiwanese identity (as opposed identifying as Chinese) has also trended up in recent decades and now most people only consider themselves to be Taiwanese and not Chinese. https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7800&id=6961

Re: Leaving China

#394

Post by ninjin »

onethought wrote: post #362
ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

But Taiwan, HK, Singapore, and Melbourne all did the same thing, extended lockdowns. This wasn't autocracy, this was logical health policy: Do you overwhelm hospitals, potentially causing them to fail, or do you limit personal freedom? That's the question that they had to answer. China had the added complication of not having a vaccinated population. Partly due to them having too many people, partly due to their popu…

> This wasn't autocracy, this was logical health policy: Do you overwhelm hospitals, potentially causing them to fail, or do you limit personal freedom? That's the question that they had to answer.

Except, the choice was nowhere as binary as you present and/or perceive it. If you look across the world you will see many different responses to the very same problem, but with different answers based on political, cultural, etc. differences.

I kept and keep hearing the usual responses as to why the PRC had to respond in a highly authoritarian manner: the citizens can not handle freedom as they are morally weak. This may be true, but is it not awfully convenient that this always leads to the answer being politically empowering the CCP? Cui bono?

Re: Leaving China

#395

Post by fakeslimshady5 »

photochemsyn wrote: post #214

I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. They knew that their poorly managed reckless science program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of the outbreak, and they wanted to somehow prove they could wipe the virus out entirely (which they couldn't). Eventually they had to give up. I wonder what happens to people in China who point this…

Apparently you missed the memo that the experiments were paid and directed at the request of US NIH

Re: Leaving China

#396

Post by beebmam »

imiric wrote: post #257
photochemsyn wrote: post #214

I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. They knew that their poorly managed reckless science program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of the outbreak, and they wanted to somehow prove they could wipe the virus out entirely (which they couldn't). Eventually they had to give up. I wonder what happens to people in China who point this…

Let's entertain the possibility that China wasn't responsible for a lab leak, and that the zoonotic theory is true. Whatever the source, we know that the Wuhan wet market was a super-spreader event, which Chinese authorities concede. Following this, China grounded all domestic flights in January 2020, yet still allowed outbound international flights well into March 2020. Countries were left to ban flights from China…

The coverup of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 is a far worse crime than if it did accidentally leak from a lab. The coverup has done serious harm to our ability to understand how these diseases emerge at large scale in human populations.

Re: Leaving China

#397

Post by throwawaymaths »

photochemsyn wrote: post #207
ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

It's not that amazing, it's just that American investors wanted to cut labor costs in the late 1990s and China was offering dollar-a-day workers. The claim that opening up trade with China would have a 'liberalizing influence on the country' was one of the key selling points back in 2000-2001, pushed by both Clinton and GW Bush: https://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/09/18/china.... See Clinton's Mar 2000 sp…

> The claim that opening up trade with China would have a 'liberalizing influence on the country'

I mean that did happen. It's just that it wasnt for seen that it could be snapped back so violently.

China is still definitely more liberalized than it was in, say, 1980, even if it apexed in 2016 (with a long way to go) and retrenched itself since then.

Re: Leaving China

#398

Post by [deleted] »

ekabod wrote: post #389
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I was on koh phi phi someone greeted my Chinese wife in Chinese, which was a new development (english is fairly common, mandarin is also becoming more common). It seems like a lot of the tourists are now mainland Chinese, and the Thai tourist economy at least likes their money. Bangkok is ethnically a mostly Chinese city, and is also Thailand’s richest region by far.

>Bangkok is ethnically a mostly Chinese city Do you have a source for that because that has not been my experience?

[deleted]

Re: Leaving China

#399

Post by chenster »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #383
petesergeant wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thailand is weird[0], in that there's no love lost at all for mainland Chinese or Chinese tourists, but it's very socially important to have a Chinese grandparent or two. [0]: Actually I think this is true of most of South East Asia where the Chinese community doesn't have as distinct a separation as Malaysia and Singapore

Last time I was on koh phi phi someone greeted my Chinese wife in Chinese, which was a new development (english is fairly common, mandarin is also becoming more common). It seems like a lot of the tourists are now mainland Chinese, and the Thai tourist economy at least likes their money. Bangkok is ethnically a mostly Chinese city, and is also Thailand’s richest region by far.

Simply NOT true

Re: Leaving China

#400

Post by throwawaymaths »

onethought wrote: post #362
ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

But Taiwan, HK, Singapore, and Melbourne all did the same thing, extended lockdowns. This wasn't autocracy, this was logical health policy: Do you overwhelm hospitals, potentially causing them to fail, or do you limit personal freedom? That's the question that they had to answer. China had the added complication of not having a vaccinated population. Partly due to them having too many people, partly due to their popu…

Taiwan, SH, MB did not do batshit insane things like spraying bleach on the streets, dna swab testing imported fish, metal vehicle surfaces, not to mention welding doors of apartment complexes shut, barricading entire neighborhoods, requiring full neighborhoods to take pcr tests en masse, quarantine camps, etc.
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