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Leaving China

persuasion.community

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Re: Leaving China

#201

Post by mc32 »

paxys wrote: post #186
givemeethekeys wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China does not have a citizenship program. If you are not born Chinese, you will never be Chinese. Everyone who moves to China is an expat. What you call yourself, "immigrant" or "expat" is up to you. For example, plenty of Indians call themselves expats in the US. Other Indians call themselves immigrants. Personally, I'm a fan of the word "alien". God Bless America! :D

Millions of people live in the USA right now with no path to citizenship yet have never been called expats.

There is a distinction between people who follow immigration protocol and those who don't. I China, even following approved, official protocol, it becomes very difficult. The US on the other hand routinely grants American citizenship to foreigners. China makes it very difficult for foreigners immigrating legally and following protocol to become Chinese citizens.

Re: Leaving China

#202

Post by robomartin »

RedCondor wrote: post #132
nebukhadnezzar wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you win or get out of the attempts to rewrite atrocities like they have never happened in history? What did the victims that died that week do to you? https://imgur.com/a/q8ZIS

I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine. The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.

[flagged]

Re: Leaving China

#203

Post by jasonjei »

robomartin wrote: post #190
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

How would you wrap Singapore into your comment? I was recently there and took note of what looked like significant Chinese cultural influence almost everywhere.

Singapore is a republic with a large population of the Chinese diaspora. However, the control of government under its system has not changed parties since its independence from the UK (whether you agree or not, some have called it de facto single party state). Chinese culture is weaved extensively into its culture, including Chinese character names in identification cards for those that identify as Chinese ethnicity.

I have many Singaporean friends of Chinese ethnicity, and most would see themselves distinct from China—not Chinese but of Chinese heritage.

Re: Leaving China

#204

Post by T-A »

scrubs wrote: post #97
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

Although off topic from the original post, would you entertain this question? What's Taiwan's position on integration with China? What does Taiwan want for itself? I'd like to hear more about that minus American and Chinese input.

https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963

Re: Leaving China

#205

Post by 908B64B197 »

paxys wrote: post #186
givemeethekeys wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China does not have a citizenship program. If you are not born Chinese, you will never be Chinese. Everyone who moves to China is an expat. What you call yourself, "immigrant" or "expat" is up to you. For example, plenty of Indians call themselves expats in the US. Other Indians call themselves immigrants. Personally, I'm a fan of the word "alien". God Bless America! :D

Millions of people live in the USA right now with no path to citizenship yet have never been called expats.

Do they have the intent (legal or not) to stay permanently?

An immigrant has an intent to settle, an expat doesn't. In America, one could theoretically lose work authorization should he refer or present himself as an immigrant (if he or she is on a legal status that doesn't allow for immigrant intent).

Same thing in Europe. Thousands of EU citizens live and work anywhere in the EU outside their home country but have no intent on permanently staying there. Often for decades. They are very much expats.

Re: Leaving China

#206

Post by nitwit005 »

hayst4ck wrote: post #81
ersiees wrote: post #3

Why do we call people expats and not rich migrants or something like that?

While there are very jaded views about cultural superiority and other things like that. I think the truth is probably less cynical. I can move to japan and marry a Japanese wife, work for a Japanese company, pay Japanese taxes, and speak fluent Japanese, but I will never be Japanese because my skin is white. People can move to America, and as long as you speak English without an accent, there is an assumption that yo…

How accepted you are has nothing to do with you being an immigrant or not. You immigrated. It's the act of living permanently in a foreign country.

Re: Leaving China

#207

Post by photochemsyn »

ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

It's not that amazing, it's just that American investors wanted to cut labor costs in the late 1990s and China was offering dollar-a-day workers. The claim that opening up trade with China would have a 'liberalizing influence on the country' was one of the key selling points back in 2000-2001, pushed by both Clinton and GW Bush:

https://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/09/18/china....

See Clinton's Mar 2000 speech:

> "By joining the W.T.O., China is not simply agreeing to import more of our products; it is agreeing to import one of democracy's most cherished values: economic freedom. The more China liberalizes its economy, the more fully it will liberate the potential of its people — their initiative, their imagination, their remarkable spirit of enterprise. And when individuals have the power, not just to dream but to realize their dreams, they will demand a greater say."

Of course it was all nonsense, Clinton and Bush were just listening to Wall Street interests who saw massive profits in moving US manufacturing overseas to cheap labor zones. (Importing cheap labor to do jobs that couldn't be outsourced, in agriculture, construction, etc. was the other side of that coin).

Re: Leaving China

#208

Post by xyzelement »

tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

Looks like you got a lot of replies so good comment from that point of view. Provocative.

There's a simple way to navigate what you are talking about - look at actual immigrants. People vote with their feet and there's still a ton of Chinese and everyone else trying to come to the US, hardly a trickle going the other way.

Living in the US is amazing. Most of the problems that you are aware of aren't actually impacting you or anyone you know (like, school shootings are clearly top of mind for you but have you met anyone who met anyone affected by one? Probably not.)

Re: Leaving China

#209

Post by henry2023 »

tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

You should try Munich or Berlin instead

Re: Leaving China

#210

Post by antondd »

Warning: this thread is very likely to be heavily astroturfed by Chinese influence operations. This is exactly the type of question and discussion that provides a perfect opportunity to change or chip at your opinion on China. Hence:

- “Taiwan is acqshually a dictatorship”

- “The integration of HK was managed extremely well”

- “China may have X, but whatabout Y in the US/decadent West/Europe”

- “That’s it, I’m moving to China. Any tips?”

I’m not saying any positive comments about China are manufactured. But given the amount of money and effort China spends on these type of influence operations, the context of this thread, and the type of audience HN attracts, chances are they are.

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