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Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

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Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#421

Post by _glass »

_a_a_a_ wrote: post #393
brianwawok wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the way to get back at PHB is to form a tech lead software company and hire 0 people with MBAs.

Is that truly fair though. I have no exposure to MBAs and it may be all the negative talk about them is based on the conspicuously bad ones. I'm speaking as an IT person with very little experience of running a business, and it may be that a good MBA could be a great asset. I genuinely don't know. I'm reminded of reading about a Lisp machine company that ran into the ground because it was managed by techies. Their te…

I don't have an MBA, but I studied intercultural management as my Masters, and I am writing my PhD right now in management. To be honest it is quite zen like, with the degree you can understand how you can manage engineers by not trying to manage them. Other type of people mostly need closer alignment. I know a lot of stuff of how to make a company more profitable, and generally a nicer place to work. Management is actually quite like engineering, more of a craft than an exact science. The science helps you to have names for things, and a lot of times I really know how to fix people stuff.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#422

Post by breck »

chadash wrote: post #395
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So exact in fact that they will need to specify a program in a click and drag interface, or in human language. This. I started programming in Machine Code, where the "editor" was a pad of graph paper. I've watched management- and business-focused people sneer at us geeks for my entire career, and watched them drool over the thought of finally getting rid of us. Hasn't happened yet. > I'd be surprised if the next st…

I agree with your characterization in general. If all someone has is an idea and no relevant experience to back it up, run. I can’t stand people like that. But there’s one type of ideas person I’m thrilled to work with. Someone with deep and successful experience in sales. The head of sales at my company is also relatively product oriented and boy, he just has a knack for what customers want. In general, I think many…

Agreed. I have a thousand tools mastered to solve any software issue quickly. But people issues can still stump me for days. Both skillsets take dedication and years(decades?) to master.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#424

Post by sarchertech »

eldritch_4ier wrote: post #405
worthless-trash wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a founder likely easier again ;)

Maybe? A founders job is basically “execute the path to capitalize on the opportunity”. So you have to figure out the opportunity, and execute towards it by whatever means necessary - that’s a lot of jobs and hats. As long as there’s a human required to make a business possible, founders will exist. Get rid of software engineering, marketing, fundraising, identifying the opportunity, sales, customer support, etc then…

> But at that point every other human job is automated too.

I’ve heard that exact same argument for software engineers.

As an outside observer it sounds like you’ve switched from SE to founder, so you’re failing to apply the same standards because you (consciously or not) want to defend your current position.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#425

Post by kashnote »

Lots of people saying that a programmer's job is more than just writing code, and I agree. But consider this:

You give ChatGPT-58 some startup idea and ask it to incorporate the company, build the software, do the marketing, etc. It starts doing a pretty good job. It's in charge of the whole system, so it doesn't need human intervention to give it context. The company grows and is making $1M/yr. It has now replaced 10 potential jobs in the market.

I feel like that's the worry many folks have. It's a pretty dystopian view of the future but if you can make $1M/yr and not have to pay any employees that money and all you had to do was pay OpenAI about $100/mo, would you not do that?

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#426

Post by bodhi_mind »

carlmr wrote: post #29

Looking back we had one CS professor who in 2007 predicted we'd all be jobless in ten years, i.e. 2017. His prediction was based on the trends he was seeing at the time. But it wasn't even AI. Instead he made this prediction because he saw the rise of no-code tools replacing software developers because managers could finally cut out the pesky "translators", i.e. software developers. I said it then and I will say it n…

I want to agree with this. It makes sense in the current environment. But what about when the ai has more memory and is able to ask the right probing questions to be effective at requirements gathering?

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#427

Post by _-____-_ »

yanisneverlies wrote: post #413

I don't find such perspectives useful because they only consider two extremes: either we keep our jobs or become jobless. The fact is, AI is currently capable of replacing some jobs, and it will likely replace even more in the future. However, this does not mean that we will all become jobless. Instead, engineers will become more valuable as they are needed to support and develop these complex systems. Though, the am…

> Though, the amount of engineers will be reduced for sure.

Why do you assume the demand for the output of engineers will remain constant? More likely it will continue growing (as it always has - "software is eating the world"), and engineers will be able to produce more output efficiently. This doesn't necessarily mean there will be fewer engineers.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#428

Post by d0mine »

chii wrote: post #263
pcthrowaway wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is asking about career prospects 10-15 years out though. I'm sorry, but the landscape in then might be as alien to someone asking today, as todays would have been to someone asking 15 years ago (2008). What John said is correct, but personally I think he's underplaying how much people could be affected. Those "product skills" take years of grinding to really sharpen, and in 15 years only a few people migh…

> as todays would have been to someone asking 15 years ago (2008). i dont think, if you took someone from 15 yrs ago, and transplanted them here today, that they'd find it all that different technologically. Sure, machines are faster, slightly different, and such, but the fundamentals haven't changed. A software engineer could just as well write an app today as they had 15 yrs ago. You'd have to go back 30 yrs, for c…

30 years ago (1993): Linux existed, Python existed, web existed (mosaic), DOOM (3D graphics), and even Apple Newton (mobile) existed; and C, shell, windows (GUI), spreadsheet, sql, etc were known long before that.

What exactly revolutionary happened in the last 30 years? javascript? (two weeks project)

amazon, google, facebook, netflix, iphone, instagram, tiktok -- execution is great but seems inevitable that somebody will create it. Ok, for non-IT people iphone was a game changer (the first personal computer that your grandmother can actually use).

The ability of generative AI to produce BS indistinguishable from human BS is very impressive but it remains to be seen whether it is a net positive for an average developer (the time wasted correcting it, waiting for its output can be spent understanding the problem better--the typing the code itself is a small part of a programmer who knows what they are doing).

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#429

Post by andric »

moneywoes wrote: post #410
chadash wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your characterization in general. If all someone has is an idea and no relevant experience to back it up, run. I can’t stand people like that. But there’s one type of ideas person I’m thrilled to work with. Someone with deep and successful experience in sales. The head of sales at my company is also relatively product oriented and boy, he just has a knack for what customers want. In general, I think many…

Besides opening your own company does a role exist where you can do both?

DevRel or Sales Engineering roles, maybe?

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#430

Post by Keegs »

moneywoes wrote: post #410
chadash wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your characterization in general. If all someone has is an idea and no relevant experience to back it up, run. I can’t stand people like that. But there’s one type of ideas person I’m thrilled to work with. Someone with deep and successful experience in sales. The head of sales at my company is also relatively product oriented and boy, he just has a knack for what customers want. In general, I think many…

Besides opening your own company does a role exist where you can do both?

There’s a role called sales engineer that typically exists in the sales organization but requires a technical background. From the engineering org’s perspective, your SEs are there to make sure sales doesn’t oversell or undersell. At my company your pay is commission-based but with a higher base than sales proper.
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