Live data from Hacker News

Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

twitter.com

111–120 of 829 posts

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#111
post #46

I love to code, as much as I loved math in college, but coding paid better and I'm pretty good at it. Those were my choices though b/c I want to do something I love. Sure, I keep my eye on the "Delivered Value" by making sure I engineer solutions to real problems, but I've never wanted to move out of coding and into managing engineers to build stuff. I want to code. It seems to me that the advice given here would be…

It's like telling a musician to become a DJ because the point of performing is to entertain people. It's not wrong, but it's also not applicable to all people who enjoy performing an instrument.

Difference is - are you a musician who wants to earn money from playing, or just want to play for your enjoyment?

You can do both, at the same time, but one has external expectations you shouldn't forget about.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#112
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2008 wasn’t so different was it? I guess the big new thing in work since then is the “gig economy”.

We've had LLMs for about 5 years so far in non-academic research. If we're talking 10 years out that means we're looking at tech that's about 1/3 through its development to date. Take any mature-ish technology that you use today and compare the version 1/3 through its life to the version you use now. Look at Chrome 20 compare to Chrome 111, or React 14 compared to React 18, or an iPhone 4 compared to an iPhone 14, or…

Where's my fusion powered flying car and electricity too cheap to meter?

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#113
post #66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old are you? This is a very idealistic point of view. I might call it a "I watch a lot of Star Trek" utopian kind of view. Vast majority of people in the real world do a "useless job". What do you think they should be doing and how do they get those alternative opportunities to feed themselves and their families?

33. Not to be glib, but I think you're too locked into an ideology. Idealistically we shouldn't be working in jobs that do not add value to society, that could well include my job. You work 8 hours to live 4. You work 5 days to enjoy 2. You work 8 hrs to eat lunch in 30 mins. You work all year to take a week or two holiday. You work all your life to retire in old age. You might claim that people need to work to live,…

Amen to that.

Cue in to the books by the Strougatsky brothers to see what one possible future could look like. Instead of heading right into Cyberpunk territory.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#114
post #29

Looking back we had one CS professor who in 2007 predicted we'd all be jobless in ten years, i.e. 2017. His prediction was based on the trends he was seeing at the time. But it wasn't even AI. Instead he made this prediction because he saw the rise of no-code tools replacing software developers because managers could finally cut out the pesky "translators", i.e. software developers. I said it then and I will say it n…

Totally agree, maybe we should replace lower and middle management with AI. What i usually find is that lower and middle management is the reason shit isn't getting done. They are the messenger that don't want to get shot but want to get promoted. Why not let the people on the floor complain to a AI manager, the people on the floor know exactly what is killing their productivity. Like "yo ai manager, manually filling…

> the people on the floor know exactly what is killing their productivity

The reality is that they frequently don’t.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#115
post #70

An average programmer's main job is to track down and fix bugs that shouldn't exist inside software that shouldn't exist build on frameworks that shouldn't exist for companies that shouldn't exist solving problems that shouldn't exist in industry niches that shouldn't exist. I'm 100% convinced that, if someone comes along and creates something that actually obsoletes 95% of programming jobs, everyone would very quick…

It’s pretty true, someone today on here wrote, “teach it to understand swagger”, I actually laughed, like I’ve used swagger and it often turns into a Frankenstein, and sometimes for good reason. I completely understand the sentiment and I like swagger. I believe the world is wiggly, not geometrically perfect, intellectuals struggle with that because square problems are easier to solve. Ideal scenarios are predictable…

Actually chat gpt is quite good at understanding some kinds of wiggliness. I built a restful api and documented it in a readme.md file in the wiggliest of ways. I then asked chatgpt to turn the readme into a swagger spec and then give me a page that read the spec and gave me a nice doc page with api exercise tool. Both tasks it performed really well and saved me a whole bunch of time.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#116

Just avoid careers in software development. These are not high paying, if you factor in total time invested and spent working; and you have to waste your life away sitting in an office chasing tickets. Nothing engineery about it. It’s modern day assembly line work.

I do wonder why you're being downvoted

I've came to the same conclusion:

I'm earning more than my friends, but

I've spend years doing it at work,

I've been learning it for years at college and

I've been doing it for years during my "free" time.

The $ per hour spent ratio doesn't seem to be very good.

When talking just about $/hour spent ratio then there are jobs which pay well and you can start earning decent faster.

Like well drilling, truck driving and I bet countless other

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#117
I imagine writing code by hand without AI will be the assembler of our times.

Maybe the reasons to do it won't be "performance", but actually "maintainability" or "legibility".

Very similar to how you don't care about the machine code your high level code generates in 99% of the time, so you just make changes and replace it every time happily, but for that tight loop you want to keep it an assembler, I can imagine a world where, let's say for a bunch of simple UI components, you just ask the machine to do it for you and if tomorrow the requirements change a bit you ask again and throw away the old one, no big deal. But some gnarlier piece of business logic, harder to explain even to a human may need a more careful treatment, and to be easier to change by hand because that's where most of the changes happen, maybe.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#118
post #29

Looking back we had one CS professor who in 2007 predicted we'd all be jobless in ten years, i.e. 2017. His prediction was based on the trends he was seeing at the time. But it wasn't even AI. Instead he made this prediction because he saw the rise of no-code tools replacing software developers because managers could finally cut out the pesky "translators", i.e. software developers. I said it then and I will say it n…

> In essence what has happened in software development is that the level of abstraction has gone up while the machine has taken over more and more of the nitty gritty details. From punchcards, to assembly, to COBOL, C, Perl, Java, Python, Erlang, Rust.

I feel like there's currently a movement towards slightly lower abstraction, or at least simplified, consistent APIs, less magic. The rise of Go and Rust are examples of this. Typescript could be another, although the abstraction isn't really lower, it is once again an attempt to coerce JS into something workable. I get really frustrated writing Python or Rails these days due to the sheer magnitude of hidden magic that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

To tie this thought in with generative AIs: Currently they seem to be much better at programming with relatively simple syntax. By far the largest success so far I had with shell. Basically I tested assisted writing the same tool in Python, Perl and shell, and the results in shell were close to perfect. ChatGPT was even able to accurately limit commands to specific OSs and shells, and was able to accurately summarize the functions of other shell scripts.

So my prediction is that we will see a movement towards simpler, lower abstraction languages while Coding Assistants rise to take away the boring stuff from programming like looking up syntax, writing boilerplate, structuring files. Programmers will then have more time to think about delivering value to product, maintainability, and efficiency and correctness.

One last addendum: ChatGPT is really incredible at assisting with sys admin stuff, my guess for why would be that there are a gazillion obscure forum entries going back to the 80s explaining basically everything there is to know, but these are hard to find or comprehend for humans. With an AI assistant, self-hosting becomes much easier, and another development could be for startups and smaller companies to move away from AWS et al, especially now that money is more expensive.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#119

The computers are coming for jobs ever up the white collar scale. When I started working there were (barely) still secretaries who typed and filed things for their bosses, and quite a few geeks had jobs that involved assembly language programming. AI will take jobs. Super frustratingly, it'll probably make call centers even more useless (has anyone ever gotten anything useful out of one of those ("Hi, I'm ____. Can I…

I see the plumber/electrician thing a lot. But talking to my friends who do these jobs it always seems like it would be even more vulnerable to AI than programming. Experienced electricians get paid decent wages because they have had lots of training and then have seen loads of different problems. So they intuitively know things like 'This is a 1960s house so if there's a problem with the lighting the first thing I s…

I wonder if there's enough info about how to do tradesmen's jobs online for that to happen. Programmers are at risk because we filled the internet with free training materials but many jobs aren't like that especially anything with a physical component.

Re: Build full “product skills” and you'll probably be fine

#120
post #29

Looking back we had one CS professor who in 2007 predicted we'd all be jobless in ten years, i.e. 2017. His prediction was based on the trends he was seeing at the time. But it wasn't even AI. Instead he made this prediction because he saw the rise of no-code tools replacing software developers because managers could finally cut out the pesky "translators", i.e. software developers. I said it then and I will say it n…

I agree with your premise but differ in the conclusion I reach.

The model I have is closer to “how many people can program using Excel vs how many can program in a ‘traditional ‘ language?” The difficulty in specifying exactly what you want is still there in Excel, but there’s far more people who can get started and they can make changes when they see it’s not doing what they want.

It doesn’t have to one shot “hey, implement these 59 Jira tickets for me” to be disruptive (in a good way). It’s extremely rare for something to get much cheaper and for there to be less demand for it. If you’re the top half of a field that’s in a lot of (and growing) demand, I think you’ll do fine.

Post reply on HN