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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#61

Post by s1artibartfast »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

I think part of the challenge and problem is that college has come to be synonymous with high tier universities.

There's a ton of non monetary rewards that can be had cheaply from learning, whether it is art, history, or any of the non technical professions. This value can be had for pennies on the dollar at community colleges without locking oneself into a 4-year degree track. You can ignore it GEs and simply take the classes you want to learn. You don't have to front load education into your early twenties and then stop completely once you are done.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#62

Post by sidlls »

mfer wrote: post #53
azinman2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

> But I wouldn’t dismiss its value in being taught how to think. Few universities teach how to think. Most teach what to think. Critical thinking, reasoning through ideas and concepts, and research are often lacking. > I wish there was a bigger focus in physics, math, and philosophy for those who didn’t know what to do I don't buy that. You can't by a psychiatrist. You can't be a medical doctor or nutritionist. There…

The context within the social and economic structure of society matters, too. Very few good quality careers are accessible for the self-taught individual.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#63

Post by [deleted] »

michaelt wrote: post #50
gautamdivgi wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to say this but you were probably an unfortunate bait for a labor certification of an existing employee on an h1b visa. That is generally the only reason companies will stick to the bscs requirement. Normally if you have requisite experience the degree - especially bscs is not needed.

Eh, there is plenty of h1b nonsense, but asking for a degree is hardly unusual. Just like quizzing people about sorting algorithms. People love to imagine the core of their job is difficult, intellectual problems that need super-smart people - so they don't have to admit the main challenge is maintaining motivation in the face of corporate BS like SOC2.

[deleted]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#64

Post by Kon-Peki »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #32
hotpotamus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of those is not like the other in that it requires extensive college. It also happens to be the one that pays more than the others.

Being a high-end plumber doesn't take much college. I joke, but most lawyers actually don't make a ton of money. Like programming, the profession is very bimodal. By the time you get out of law school, unless that law school is a big name like Harvard or you get a good clerkship or associate job, you will be heading for a career that tops out at $200k/year if you don't burn out in the mean time. Plumbing, electrical…

The trades can be excellent careers, but it doesn’t do anyone any good to pretend that they’re an ideal path for most people.

You’ll be constantly working with people making poor life decisions that look like a lot of fun, and being encouraged to join in.

People with self-control issues or trouble resisting peer pressure are going to have a lot of trouble succeeding. They’ll have very little help.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#65

Post by zoogeny »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

Your post makes me consider what other avenues to achieve the growth of intellectual souls and exposure to depth of thought could exist other than paid-for highly-structured institutions.

I think people wax poetically about their own experiences without really considering the experiences of others. We've had free public libraries for centuries now. We've had a pretty open Internet for decades. There is literally nothing stopping a 20 year old human who lives in Western society from growing their intellectual soul through learning.

For a lot of young kids, school is more like a prison than an intellectual garden. Yet a certain kind of thinking keeps these institutions mandated with the good intention of growing souls.

My own opinion is that the current means is utterly failing at generating the desired ends. As the antiquated expression goes: You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#66

Post by azinman2 »

mfer wrote: post #53
azinman2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

> But I wouldn’t dismiss its value in being taught how to think. Few universities teach how to think. Most teach what to think. Critical thinking, reasoning through ideas and concepts, and research are often lacking. > I wish there was a bigger focus in physics, math, and philosophy for those who didn’t know what to do I don't buy that. You can't by a psychiatrist. You can't be a medical doctor or nutritionist. There…

MDs require more school on top of college; their major is often unrelated except they have to take pre-med classes. Often times people will go back to a community college or some other schooling option for those classes if they decide they want to go down that route. So you absolutely can be any of those majors and change your position later. Far better than say a communications major, which with psychology are the two main majors for people who are in college but don’t know what to focus on.

You can self-educate but very, very few have the capacity to get anywhere near what you’d get from a dedicated professional walking you through a curriculum in a context where you’re dedicating 4 years to the endeavor.

Of course not everyone “needs” to be more educated to have a functional life, but society is much better off when more of the public is educated. You can look around the world at the varying results of that, and it’s consequences.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#67

Post by phpisthebest »

azinman2 wrote: post #56
phpisthebest wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have conflated college with education. One can get education, build professional networks, etc with out college and importantly one can go to college complete a degree program while receiving zero education. many (most) Colleges is more of a social guild than it is an educational ventures

Very few on their own would get anywhere close to what a college gives you in terms of an education. Particularly in ways that are far broader than what you’d do professionally. Keep in mind college is 4 years of education on a daily basis.

>>4 years of education on a daily basis.

Is it? Really??? For all degrees and all programs..

that is the claim... but I just do not see that manifest in reality.

Seem you have a very inflated view of the programs... just how much debt are you attempting to justify?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#68

Post by micromacrofoot »

zabzonk wrote: post #29
micromacrofoot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

college isn’t quite equivalent to trade school, it wasn’t really about getting a degree in a career field until it became so outrageously expensive that you needed to constantly consider how you’d pay it back

my point was that "art", while certainly a viable career should you have talent, cannot be taught. a bit like programming, or anything else, when i come to think of it...

most of the greatest masters were taught art from childhood, it’s not magic

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#69

Post by varunjain99 »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

I'd also add

4) A social / networking experience. As an adult, rarely will you interact so often with so many people of your age.

5. A signaling mechanism. I have X credentials so give me job Y. This is far from ideal because the signal can be noisy. But it is a data point. It's similar to how physics PhD's are targeted for quant finance roles - they've signaled they can solve hard problems!

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#70

Post by tempsy »

gloryjulio wrote: post #58
tempsy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it’s more like people tricked into going into the finishing school route at a non-elite college, not about whether you come from a rich family or not and don’t need to take on debt. Go to an Ivy League and major in history and you still have a better chance at getting a job at an elite investment bank than someone who goes to a non target state school and majors in statistics or something.

Yes, basically lots of low tier unis are not worth wasting ur money on. Ironically, I learnt the most important skills(learn how to learn effectively, prioritization etc) only after I started to work in a company where I was getting coached. I would have been far more efficient if go back to school now.

i wouldn’t say that. i just think if you go to a lower ranked school your path to career success more so relies on getting a technical degree but yes you shouldn’t be studying liberal arts at a no name school.
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