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ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

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Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#51

Post by pphysch »

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #45
pphysch wrote: post #18

It would be a shame if Putin decided to follow Washington's lead and simply criminalize the ICC itself [1]. Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him. Not that that would stop them, but it's funny to consider. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

It's extra hilarious that you actually posted the link which proves everything you said is false. Putin isn't an American service member and neither an American in general. He can't be 'extradited' if he wasn't here in the first place, and the article also states: > Additionally, the act does not prohibit the U.S. from assisting in the search and capture of foreign nationals wanted for prosecution by the ICC

You're missing the forest from the trees: Washington considers the ICC a complete joke.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#52

Post by sam_lowry_ »

lordfrito wrote: post #19

This is the first time I've heard of Maria Lvova-Belova. I'm aware of the forced deportation of children from Ukraine to Russia. Can someone shed light on her role in this (other than her title of Commissioner of Children's Rights) and why she's being singled out?

Apparently she is the organizer of the child abdictions, due to her position within the Russian state.

She is also a prominent public supporter of the programme, having abdicted herself a teenager from Mariupol.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#54

Post by maximinus_thrax »

pphysch wrote: post #51
maximinus_thrax wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extra hilarious that you actually posted the link which proves everything you said is false. Putin isn't an American service member and neither an American in general. He can't be 'extradited' if he wasn't here in the first place, and the article also states: > Additionally, the act does not prohibit the U.S. from assisting in the search and capture of foreign nationals wanted for prosecution by the ICC

You're missing the forest from the trees: Washington considers the ICC a complete joke.

Maybe, but what you originally said is false.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#55

Post by pphysch »

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #54
pphysch wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the forest from the trees: Washington considers the ICC a complete joke.

Maybe, but what you originally said is false.

No, it is not. While the spirit of the law is to protect USA personnel and not official enemies like Putin, Section 4 prohibits any explicit cooperation with the ICC. My other comment included the clause "comply with the ICC", which is forbidden.

It is your comments that are misleading.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#56

Post by dragonwriter »

pphysch wrote: post #18

It would be a shame if Putin decided to follow Washington's lead and simply criminalize the ICC itself [1]. Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him. Not that that would stop them, but it's funny to consider. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

> Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him.

I mean, since ICC arrest warrants have no force in the US, it would be a violation of due process and hence false arrest, but the American Service Members Protection Act has nothing to do with that.

It would not be illegal, however, for American law enforcement officers to arrest him on a US warrant pursuant to an extradition request from a Rome Statue Party, because the ICC extradition protections in the Act extend only to US citizens, which Putin decidedly is not.

Of course, the US could also just try, convict, and execute Putin for war crimes itself in that case, and the ICC doesn’t apply the death penalty, so I’m not sure not getting extradited to the ICC would be a win for Putin, anyway. The US War Crimes statute allows US exercise of jurisdiction if either any part of the offense occurs in the US, any victim was a US citizen or service member, or the offender happens to be present in the US, regardless of where the crime occurred and the nationality of victims.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#58

Post by maximinus_thrax »

pphysch wrote: post #55
maximinus_thrax wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but what you originally said is false.

No, it is not. While the spirit of the law is to protect USA personnel and not official enemies like Putin, Section 4 prohibits any explicit cooperation with the ICC. My other comment included the clause "comply with the ICC", which is forbidden. It is your comments that are misleading.

I'm sorry, but do you have reading comprehension issues?

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ206/html/PLA...

> SEC. 2015. > ASSISTANCE TO INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS.

> Nothing in this title shall prohibit the United States from rendering assistance to international efforts to bring to justice Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosovic, Osama bin Laden, other members of Al Queda, leaders of Islamic Jihad, and other foreign nationals accused of genocide, war crimes or crimes against humanity.

From the ICC:

> Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute).

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#59

Post by app4soft »

actinium226 wrote: post #4

As a theoretical exercise, does anyone know what the punishment for these crimes would be? Of course we'll never see a trial, but I'm just curious, if it were to happen in some parallel universe, what would they get? A couple years in jail? Life?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi was killed 4 months after the ICC issued warrants for his arrest.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#60

Post by dragonwriter »

actinium226 wrote: post #4

As a theoretical exercise, does anyone know what the punishment for these crimes would be? Of course we'll never see a trial, but I'm just curious, if it were to happen in some parallel universe, what would they get? A couple years in jail? Life?

Its really hard to tell; life imprisonment plus fines and forfeiture, would be the maximum, but there’s not some equivalent of the Sentencing Guidelines that exist for the US federal system where you could map war crimes allegations to point values and come up with an estimated sentence based on the allegations (plus, the actual warrants and details of the allegations remain secret; only the barest details of the warrants have been published as an attempt to deter continuation of ongoing crimes under the authority of these two actors, so even if we had an “ICC Sentencing Manual”, we wouldn’t have the information to apply it.)
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