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ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

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Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#31

Post by hirundo »

actinium226 wrote: post #4

As a theoretical exercise, does anyone know what the punishment for these crimes would be? Of course we'll never see a trial, but I'm just curious, if it were to happen in some parallel universe, what would they get? A couple years in jail? Life?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials:

> The trials targeted 177 defendants and obtained 142 convictions, including 25 death sentences

> On 11 December 1946, the United Nations General Assembly unanimously passed a resolution affirming "the principles of international law recognized by the Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal and the judgment of the Tribunal".

But (thanks ceejayoz) https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/iccq&a.htm:

> Consistent with international human rights standards, the International Criminal Court has no competence to impose a death penalty. The Court can impose lengthy terms of imprisonment of up to 30 years or life when so justified by the gravity of the case. The Court may, in addition, order a fine, forfeiture of proceeds, property or assets derived from the committed crime.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#32

Post by ialyos »

pphysch wrote: post #18

It would be a shame if Putin decided to follow Washington's lead and simply criminalize the ICC itself [1]. Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him. Not that that would stop them, but it's funny to consider. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

I don’t think that’s true! IIUC the protections from that act only apply to a subset of humans, including us military and nato military members. It’s in the article you linked! So if you see Putin at your local Safeway go ahead and citizens arrest him :)

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#33

Post by dismalpedigree »

meghan_rain wrote: post #8

Why are all posts related to Russia's war on Ukraine always immediately astroturfed to death by pro-Putin bots?

I agree. This post was on front page. By the time i tried to go back to it a few minutes later it plummeted to mid page 2.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#34

Post by Larrikin »

tomp wrote: post #20
ceejayoz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Allegedly responsible" and "innocent until proven guilty" are not in contradiction.

They are if you arrest someone in response to mere allegation.

You don't understand what those words mean, you're just trying to defend Russia's war

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#35

Post by dsfyu404ed »

actinium226 wrote: post #4

As a theoretical exercise, does anyone know what the punishment for these crimes would be? Of course we'll never see a trial, but I'm just curious, if it were to happen in some parallel universe, what would they get? A couple years in jail? Life?

50yr?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taylor_(Liberian_polit...

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#37

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

sgjohnson wrote: post #29
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. Your three options are Putin, Putin's Stooge and "whoever overthrows Putin" I think the middle option is valuable because it gives Putin's less expansionist and more trade inclined henchmen an opportunity to leverage fear of the third toward an outcome that is good for everyone but Putin but less bad than the thir…

The 3rd option also has to be divided in two. 3a - Someone western minded 3b - Someone even more expansionist. Like some ultra-nationalist. Or the head of the Wagner group.

Ok so we want to be careful about not offending the ultra-nationalist expansionist guy...because the next guy might be an ultra-nationalist expansionist?

IMO, that still means you reduced the world by one ultra-nationalist expansionist who had sufficient connections and charisma to get into power. And that's still a win, even if there's still more of them out there.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#38

Post by dsfyu404ed »

sgjohnson wrote: post #29
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. Your three options are Putin, Putin's Stooge and "whoever overthrows Putin" I think the middle option is valuable because it gives Putin's less expansionist and more trade inclined henchmen an opportunity to leverage fear of the third toward an outcome that is good for everyone but Putin but less bad than the thir…

The 3rd option also has to be divided in two. 3a - Someone western minded 3b - Someone even more expansionist. Like some ultra-nationalist. Or the head of the Wagner group.

3b isn't a real option though if you're trying to head off a potential coup. You need to go with 3a in order to placate the oligarchs who want to go back to doing business as usual and placate the military who wants to go back to not being generally hated by the populace in order to reduce potential support for the coup you're scared of.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#39

Post by sgjohnson »

sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #37
sgjohnson wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 3rd option also has to be divided in two. 3a - Someone western minded 3b - Someone even more expansionist. Like some ultra-nationalist. Or the head of the Wagner group.

Ok so we want to be careful about not offending the ultra-nationalist expansionist guy...because the next guy might be an ultra-nationalist expansionist? IMO, that still means you reduced the world by one ultra-nationalist expansionist who had sufficient connections and charisma to get into power. And that's still a win, even if there's still more of them out there.

> Ok so we want to be careful about not offending the ultra-nationalist expansionist guy...because the next guy might be an ultra-nationalist expansionist?

That's not what I said. We shouldn't do any appeasement whatsoever.

Just pointing out to the fact that if someone overthrows Putin, it's not necessarily going to be a guy who thinks that the war in Ukraine is stupid.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#40

Post by ceejayoz »

hirundo wrote: post #31
actinium226 wrote: post #4

As a theoretical exercise, does anyone know what the punishment for these crimes would be? Of course we'll never see a trial, but I'm just curious, if it were to happen in some parallel universe, what would they get? A couple years in jail? Life?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials : > The trials targeted 177 defendants and obtained 142 convictions, including 25 death sentences > On 11 December 1946, the United Nations General Assembly unanimously passed a resolution affirming "the principles of international law recognized by the Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal and the judgment of the Tribunal". But (thanks ceejayoz) https://legal.un.org/icc/sta…

The ICC doesn't (can't) impose the death penalty.
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