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ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

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Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#21

Post by sgjohnson »

meghan_rain wrote: post #7
sgjohnson wrote: post #3

A completely meaningless and symbolic gesture. I don't think Putin is in a hurry to surrender himself to the ICC, and nobody is going to arrest him overseas, because as a head of state he has a total diplomatic immunity. Full disclosure: I'm fully in support of Ukraine in this Russian-expansionist war. However this is just a cold hard fact. Me pointing it out in no way whatsoever even suggests that I'm pro-russian. W…

> he has a total diplomatic immunity He doesn't, because he committed war crimes. Simple as.

Diplomatic immunity is absolute. Even committing war crimes doesn't rescind it.

His diplomatic immunity will lapse once he's no longer the head of state however.

EDIT: Pretty sure that they are personas-non-grata in each other's country at this point, which is a specifically described scenario in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.

So no, of course Zelensky couldn't enter Russia and expect nothing to happen. An Putin couldn't enter Ukraine with the expectation that his immunity will hold.

But both of them could enter any 3rd country with a reasonable expectation of that.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#22

Post by dsfyu404ed »

sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #15
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal is to give Russia maximum incentive to f-off this is not what you want to be doing. This moves the current situation further down the spectrum from "minor expansionist war we can pull out of and keep our heads on our bodies" and closer toward "potential existential crisis" from the point of view of Putin and his close buddies. The ICC is basically saying to Putin that any future successor can earn a few (…

Counterpoint: marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. It's always possible to come up with reasons to not act because acting might rock the boat. It's appeasement. Why should the ICC appease Putin?

>marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor.

Your three options are Putin, Putin's Stooge and "whoever overthrows Putin"

I think the middle option is valuable because it gives Putin's less expansionist and more trade inclined henchmen an opportunity to leverage fear of the third toward an outcome that is good for everyone but Putin but less bad than the third.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#23

Post by groot2581 »

khazhoux wrote: post #11
groot2581 wrote: post #5

[flagged]

I think this is sarcasm, and you're saying that ICC's warrant holds about as much sway in practice as if a "Sovereign Citizen" issued one... yes?

Applying maximum pressure to Russia requires issuing these warrants even if they’re unlikely to successfully bring him personally to justice. The relative sway doesn’t matter, I’m just doing what I can to send a message that these actions are not okay.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#24

Post by ceejayoz »

tomp wrote: post #20
ceejayoz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Allegedly responsible" and "innocent until proven guilty" are not in contradiction.

They are if you arrest someone in response to mere allegation.

That doesn't make any sense. Allegations (i.e. criminal charges) and arrest preceed trial.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#25

Post by ceejayoz »

pphysch wrote: post #18

It would be a shame if Putin decided to follow Washington's lead and simply criminalize the ICC itself [1]. Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him. Not that that would stop them, but it's funny to consider. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

I don't think that's true.

> Additionally, the act does not prohibit the U.S. from assisting in the search and capture of foreign nationals wanted for prosecution by the ICC, specifically naming Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević, and Osama bin Laden as examples.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#26

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. It's always possible to come up with reasons to not act because acting might rock the boat. It's appeasement. Why should the ICC appease Putin?

>marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. Your three options are Putin, Putin's Stooge and "whoever overthrows Putin" I think the middle option is valuable because it gives Putin's less expansionist and more trade inclined henchmen an opportunity to leverage fear of the third toward an outcome that is good for everyone but Putin but less bad than the thir…

I'm rooting for option 3 at this point. He's tainted everyone around him.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#27

Post by pphysch »

ceejayoz wrote: post #25
pphysch wrote: post #18

It would be a shame if Putin decided to follow Washington's lead and simply criminalize the ICC itself [1]. Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him. Not that that would stop them, but it's funny to consider. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

I don't think that's true. > Additionally, the act does not prohibit the U.S. from assisting in the search and capture of foreign nationals wanted for prosecution by the ICC, specifically naming Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević, and Osama bin Laden as examples.

I mean if the LEO were to say something like "according to ICC warrant, you're under arrest!". But practically they would just arrest him and pretend they've never heard of the ICC.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#28

Post by nine_zeros »

It is meaningless. The only time this has any meaning is if Russia crumbles in a war, and the victor nations choose to try Putin in the ICC.

A better solution to this nightmare would be Russians themselves protesting (and ceasing production) until Putin resigns - which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

This is exactly why a functional democracy is so important. Bad leaders must be ejected for the sake of humanity.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#29

Post by sgjohnson »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. It's always possible to come up with reasons to not act because acting might rock the boat. It's appeasement. Why should the ICC appease Putin?

>marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. Your three options are Putin, Putin's Stooge and "whoever overthrows Putin" I think the middle option is valuable because it gives Putin's less expansionist and more trade inclined henchmen an opportunity to leverage fear of the third toward an outcome that is good for everyone but Putin but less bad than the thir…

The 3rd option also has to be divided in two.

3a - Someone western minded

3b - Someone even more expansionist. Like some ultra-nationalist. Or the head of the Wagner group.

Re: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova

#30

Post by meghan_rain »

sgjohnson wrote: post #21
meghan_rain wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he has a total diplomatic immunity He doesn't, because he committed war crimes. Simple as.

Diplomatic immunity is absolute. Even committing war crimes doesn't rescind it. His diplomatic immunity will lapse once he's no longer the head of state however. EDIT: Pretty sure that they are personas-non-grata in each other's country at this point, which is a specifically described scenario in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. So no, of course Zelensky couldn't enter Russia and expect nothing to happe…

Oh so Zelensky could just travel to Moscow? And nothing would happen to him? Since he has diplomatic immunity as the president of Ukraine?

Whatever your answer will be, replace "Zelensky" in it with "Putin" and see if you would still stand behind it.

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