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How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

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Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#91

Post by eigenvector »

ctdonath wrote: post #81
noonespecial wrote: post #5

Space is dangerous. We should stop pretending it can be made "safe". It just gives politicians something to wag their tongues at when something inevitably goes wrong. If you go to space you might not come back. That's why explorers rock and everyone else watches TV. The article also misses an important variable. How much is discovery worth? Once that's added to the plus column, all of the other costs seem insignifica…

If you go to space you might not come back. That's why explorers rock and everyone else watches TV. http://www.wondermark.com/comics/326.gif

Every year hundreds of people do literally walk across the country on trails such as the Continental Divide Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#92

Post by redthrowaway »

colanderman wrote: post #74
Cushman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the same situation. Our military is geared up to fight yesterday's war; the "wars" we're involved in now could be solved more cost-effectively by literally paying our enemies not to fight. The next real war, if it happens, will be fought almost entirely with semi- and fully-autonomous machines. All of the lessons we've learned will be pointless. Similarly, NASA is geared up for yesterday's space race. We…

the "wars" we're involved in now could be solved more cost-effectively by literally paying our enemies not to fight. Thereby creating a nation of people dependent on our aid, who, when we cease sending aid due to budget constraints, will likely decide to start a war anyway . cough North Korea cough Not saying that line of reasoning is totally invalid, but it's definitely not so clear-cut that you can use it in an ana…

The intervention in Libya cost about $2.7BB[1]. With things heating up in Syria, and the need to further isolate Iran, we could be looking at another "low-intensity" operation there in support of the pro-democracy dissidents. Now, what would be more cost-effective: a similar campaign in Syria, or paying Assad $1BB to fuck off to Venezuela and stay there, and a further $1BB distributed to military commanders to get them to agree to cede power to an elected government? Yes it's dirty, but so is bombing the crap out of Damascus.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_L...

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#93

Post by waffle_ss »

I've also heard this argument used by libertarians such as Milton Friedman to denounce the FDA, saying that it has costed lives through being overly cautious by delaying the approval of life-saving drugs. The proposed alternative is to not have an FDA, but rather sue the drug companies directly in civil court if their drug ends up being harmful and they haven't performed adequate testing/trials.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#94

Post by kbolino »

Splines wrote: post #68
nkoren wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children don't need to watch a shuttle burst into flames in order for science to progress. Yes, they do. Progress with zero risk of failure is no progress at all. To even attempt progress with zero risk of failure is to ensure that: 1.) You will minimize your progress 2.) You will fail anyway ...As the Shuttle all too ably demonstrated.

I think we misunderstand. I'm arguing that children don't need to watch potentially disturbing imagery to ensure that they contribute to furthering science in the future. The argument "we should not coddle children because science" rings false to me. "Coddling children" is a bit of a strawman; there are things we don't tell children because of their innate immaturity. As are most things, it's a spectrum.

But in order for children to mature, they must be exposed to circumstances that challenge their naive understanding. Maturity is only correlated with age, not caused by it.

Watching a shuttle explode on TV is not the same as, say, witnessing first-hand the gruesome death of one's own parents at the hands of a psychopath.

I agree that a balance has to be struck, but I think you've lost sight of where that balance is.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#95

Post by redthrowaway »

brudgers wrote: post #57
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #38

This is about 25 years too late, but good. The problem here is that NASA is a political agency, not a scientific one. Each year, elected politicians sit down and decide how much they're going to get. This means the number one rule is don't make us look bad. You can't waste too much money, you can't go making a bunch of controversial statements, and good grief, whatever you do don't have astronauts getting exploded on…

> "as we involve the U.S. military in more and more missions that look highly political" From: "When in the course of human events," through: "and that, government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth," and even: "We Will, In Fact, Be Greeted As Liberators" the use of the military for political missions has been more common than for any other purpose.

With the possible exception of economic, although the two are often difficult to distinguish.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#96

Post by jcrites »

heliodor wrote: post #72
noonespecial wrote: post #5

Space is dangerous. We should stop pretending it can be made "safe". It just gives politicians something to wag their tongues at when something inevitably goes wrong. If you go to space you might not come back. That's why explorers rock and everyone else watches TV. The article also misses an important variable. How much is discovery worth? Once that's added to the plus column, all of the other costs seem insignifica…

I'd disagree there. Once upon a time, the sea was seen as dangerous. Everything can be made "safe" at some point.

Exactly. The air was once dangerous as well. Now there is negligible risk to travel almost anywhere in the world within 24 hours.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#97

Post by tikhonj »

chillyconker wrote: post #63
svmegatron wrote: post #55

Lost me after defining the worth of an astronaut to be $50 million, and the value of scientific knowledge obtained from a longer-lived Hubble to be incalculable. Even though I think the author makes a point worth considering, I found that a really sloppy justification.

Indeed. I would say that in truth an astronaut's life and a bunch of money are incommensurable. The value of the article lies in showing that if agencies pretend to assign a certain value to a human life then they can become less inconsistent. (And if in this case it serves Zubrin's laudable aim of getting to Mars now , so much the better.) For Zubrin himself to be consistent, OFC, he should have tried to assign a va…

There is a simple reason why we can ignore what the astronaut wants: if any particular one is too risk-averse, there are many other similarly qualified ones that are less risk-averse and NASA can hire them instead.

Additionally, I would not be surprised at all if the average astronaut is willing to put up with much more risk than the government or general public is willing to put him or her in.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#98

Post by javajosh »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #58

Mars is key to humanity’s future in space. It is the closest planet that has the resources needed to support life and technological civilization. ... well, except for air, and food. But there's water! Which we can detect with sensitive instruments! This whole article has no point. As everyone in the military knows full well, if the benefit is great enough humans will happily risk other human lives, even expend lives,…

"...there's nothing for humans to do in space that is worth so much as a single human life"

Wrong. In the long run, even if we achieve some sort of utopia, all life will be destroyed by natural catastrophe. The only way to avoid this fate is to find other places to live. Mars is one of those places; so are the various exoplanets we are finding.

Indeed, this is humanities greatest challenge. Can we harness the incredible energy density of oil to get off planet and learn to live sustainably before the oil runs out?

There is no doubt that it will be difficult. Humans are so fragile, and the universe is extraordinarily harsh. It's a problem that will demand careful study, creativity, and great personal risk.

And I think we can do it.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#99

Post by heliodor »

philjohn wrote: post #79
heliodor wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd disagree there. Once upon a time, the sea was seen as dangerous. Everything can be made "safe" at some point.

I think the families of the tens of thousands of people killed in the Japanese Tsunami last year would disagree.

Yes, one day space will hurl us an asteroid and we'll be doomed.

My point was regarding transportation through a given medium.

Re: How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth?

#100

Post by aidenn0 »

mikeash wrote: post #87
Splines wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we misunderstand. I'm arguing that children don't need to watch potentially disturbing imagery to ensure that they contribute to furthering science in the future. The argument "we should not coddle children because science" rings false to me. "Coddling children" is a bit of a strawman; there are things we don't tell children because of their innate immaturity. As are most things, it's a spectrum.

I would argue that hiding things from children the way we do only works because we aren't always successful at it. If we were able to hide things from children with 100% reliability, we'd end up with young adults incapable of functioning in society.

Like the average college freshman from the suburbs.
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