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Why do older grad students become bitter?

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Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#31

Post by lapcat »

sam_goody wrote: post #28

1. If you put a sixth grader in second grade, they wont be happy because they are doing a lot less than they should and could be doing. I think this feeling applies for sixth year students, that know they could be starting a real job or building a family. 2. Academia is built on the the theoretical. Learning is cool, and theories are nice, and colleges are full of kids that don't bear the responsibility of their acti…

Why in the world did you think it was a good idea to turn this into a partisan political debate?

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#32

Post by MereInterest »

shadowgovt wrote: post #25
VLM wrote: post #18

I think the psychological aspect of first failure and injustice is rough on grad students. Hypercompetitive to get into a good enough BS program to get into a MS program yet unlike post-BS tracks like med school, 98% aren't getting that job in academia and will fail out. Its a pyramid with a very pointy top, much like college football usually doesn't lead to a NFL career. Meanwhile the "failures" who were not smart e…

But if you don't take out loans, you almost certainly guarantee failure to reach the top of the pyramid. So we're stuck with two bad choices. Either people take a risk on loans, or the academic pyramid becomes populated with only those with burnable wealth.

As a society, we have a third option: fund education as a public good.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#33

Post by bryanrasmussen »

shadowgovt wrote: post #25
VLM wrote: post #18

I think the psychological aspect of first failure and injustice is rough on grad students. Hypercompetitive to get into a good enough BS program to get into a MS program yet unlike post-BS tracks like med school, 98% aren't getting that job in academia and will fail out. Its a pyramid with a very pointy top, much like college football usually doesn't lead to a NFL career. Meanwhile the "failures" who were not smart e…

But if you don't take out loans, you almost certainly guarantee failure to reach the top of the pyramid. So we're stuck with two bad choices. Either people take a risk on loans, or the academic pyramid becomes populated with only those with burnable wealth.

>or the academic pyramid becomes populated with only those with burnable wealth.

yes, but it doesn't reasonable that people should ruin themselves out of - what? Some patriotic duty to keep American schools egalitarian?

the people taking risk on loans are making a bad decision for themselves, the academic pyramid population problem is a bad decision for society.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#34

Post by zecaurubu »

bowsamic wrote: post #24
orff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me guess - it's in Germany.

Correct

Not sure if it would help, but if you're around the Berlin area and want to grab a beer or coffee with another guy that left academia for the industry (and still has delusions that someday will submit his thesis), hit me up.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#35

Post by polygamous_bat »

DeathArrow wrote: post #30
VLM wrote: post #18

I think the psychological aspect of first failure and injustice is rough on grad students. Hypercompetitive to get into a good enough BS program to get into a MS program yet unlike post-BS tracks like med school, 98% aren't getting that job in academia and will fail out. Its a pyramid with a very pointy top, much like college football usually doesn't lead to a NFL career. Meanwhile the "failures" who were not smart e…

You can do a BS and work in the industry. Nobody forces you to get a job in the academia.

_Someone_ needs to get jobs in the academia, otherwise after a generation we will not have anyone to train and offer those BS degrees.

Or should we only allow those with plenty of capital to pursue academia?

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#36

Post by martopix »

glass3 wrote: post #14

>Only 15% of postdocs end up being tenure-track faculty. It's strange that the most intelligent people don't overcome that limit. There are billions of people on earth who could benefit from education to become more productive. A share of that gain could pay for many more 'tenure-tracks', they just wouldn't be called like that.

Being a professor is much, much more about research than about education. You don't normally become a professor because you're good at teaching, nor because you love teaching (or maybe you do, but not only that). This is a bit sad actually, as I am an odd case of an academic that thinks teaching is much more important and even interesting than research. It's changing a bit in that positions that are research-only or teaching-only are starting to appear.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#37

Post by Avicebron »

DeathArrow wrote: post #30
VLM wrote: post #18

I think the psychological aspect of first failure and injustice is rough on grad students. Hypercompetitive to get into a good enough BS program to get into a MS program yet unlike post-BS tracks like med school, 98% aren't getting that job in academia and will fail out. Its a pyramid with a very pointy top, much like college football usually doesn't lead to a NFL career. Meanwhile the "failures" who were not smart e…

You can do a BS and work in the industry. Nobody forces you to get a job in the academia.

I think in the example case she was trying to get a job in the teaching industry, not necessarily teaching ed students in academia. At least that was my read on it.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#38

Post by lapcat »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #33
shadowgovt wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you don't take out loans, you almost certainly guarantee failure to reach the top of the pyramid. So we're stuck with two bad choices. Either people take a risk on loans, or the academic pyramid becomes populated with only those with burnable wealth.

>or the academic pyramid becomes populated with only those with burnable wealth. yes, but it doesn't reasonable that people should ruin themselves out of - what? Some patriotic duty to keep American schools egalitarian? the people taking risk on loans are making a bad decision for themselves, the academic pyramid population problem is a bad decision for society.

> the people taking risk on loans are making a bad decision for themselves

Everyone in the world takes risks. Can you say it was a bad decision for the people who took the risk, took out loans, and eventually became tenured professors?

Of course in retrospect it feels like a bad decision for those who didn't become tenure track professors, but nobody knows in advance who will beat the odds and who won't.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#39

Post by sam_goody »

lapcat wrote: post #31
sam_goody wrote: post #28

1. If you put a sixth grader in second grade, they wont be happy because they are doing a lot less than they should and could be doing. I think this feeling applies for sixth year students, that know they could be starting a real job or building a family. 2. Academia is built on the the theoretical. Learning is cool, and theories are nice, and colleges are full of kids that don't bear the responsibility of their acti…

Why in the world did you think it was a good idea to turn this into a partisan political debate?

As someone who straddles the fence, trying to get as much theoretical utopia into the messy world we live in as possible, I don't see it as "for" and against", nor as a partisan debate.

I'm a former professor, and my colleagues agreed with the description above, just disagreed how much utopia can be shoehorned in. As far as explaining dissatisfaction of a sixth year, there is something of the dawning of reality in it, and I think both sides of the political spectrum can agree to that.

If you think I should edit the comment, I will.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#40

Post by mkl95 »

> When I entered grad school, I noticed that the older grad students just seemed... oddly bitter? The 6th years were living in a different world from us 1st years

> You may need to move on for the sake of your life, but your experiments aren't working and the committee says you need one more paper to graduate. It's really hard to balance this, especially combined with the lack of money.

> Only 15% of postdocs end up being tenure-track faculty

From an engineer's point of view, working for 6 years at some organization with no significant professional growth sounds dystopian.

I can't picture why someone with above average work ethic and very likely intelligence would put themselves through that.

Downvote me as much as you want, but there is something seriously wrong in a society that tolerates these schemes.

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