US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors • Hacker News Board

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#201

Post by MrDunham » Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #156

MrDunham wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, crazy enough, I know the head lobbyist for the group that was fighting against that kidney dialysis thing. It's been struck down three times and, according to her heavily biased opinion, would seriously adversely affect access and choice. The company spent something like several hundred million dollars fighting that proposition and two before it. Crazy that one special interest can get some signatures to fight fo…

Something I find suspect is how spending hundreds of millions is profitable unless you're raking in many times that amount per year. I suspect they're guarding massive profits as opposed to advocating for patient access and choice

it's a good point. From my understanding it was the difference between having a business and not having a business.

So, more a fight for survival than a fight for just profitability.

Though my memory is fuzzy… We were talking about this over Thanksgiving dinner after several drinks and haven't discussed it since

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#202

Post by Jochim » Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

doktorhladnjak wrote: post #12

yieldcrv wrote: post #10

Isn't this debate largely a false dilemma? Its obvious to me that an additional category is prudent, or that people besides employees should have access to subsidized health care premiums and some form of paid sick leave. that doesnt have to come from the employer and that doesnt have to mean that worker flexibility is curbed. contractors can already do retirement benefits plans such as the 401k plan, running your ow…

The UK has a “worker” [0] classification between employee and true independent contractor. It provides protections like minimum wage and time off while preserving freedom about when and how someone works. It seems like it would fit this case well, but I doubt it will ever happen. Unions are the major force pushing for gig workers to be classified as employees because they’d be able to unionize. [0] https://www.gov.uk…

The UK also has some of the poorest workers and working conditions when compared to neighbouring peer countries.

The worker classification has resulted in a situation of extreme precarity for millions of people by explicitly creating a class of employee that do not enjoy the same rights as those who are financially/socially better off than them. Consider the following:

> Workers usually are not entitled to:

> minimum notice periods if their employment will be ending, for example if an employer is dismissing them

> protection against unfair dismissal

> the right to request flexible working

> time off for emergencies

> Statutory Redundancy Pay

Frankly, this describes an employment class that outright refuses to acknowledge the humanity of those categorised under it. A closer look at the context of "time off for emergencies" exemplifies this. Compared with an "employee", a person classified as a worker is not legally entitled to leave work to:

- Attend the birth of their child. - Respond to their partner being assaulted or mugged. - Care for their child should their school close. - Maternity/Paternity leave (They are still entitled to Maternity/Paternity pay however).

Consider also that many of the protections workers are supposed to enjoy are simply not enforced and that the people who fall under the category are unlikely to have the financial means, free time, or information to bring a legal challenge should their rights be violated.

Given how obviously the classification erodes employment protections, I really don't think there lies a justification for the creation of this underclass other than it being profitable for those with money.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#203

Post by carlosjobim » Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

Jochim wrote: post #200

carlosjobim wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pension time is not a gift, it is money being stolen from the worker and transferred to the rulers and to the elderly, with no trustable guarantee of the worker ever getting anything back. With that said, working at McDonalds and paying a pension is completely different than working a gig job, because you are expected to work when scheduled and will be fired if you don't, while an Uber driver works when he sees fit.

> With that said, working at McDonalds and paying a pension is completely different than working a gig job, because you are expected to work when scheduled and will be fired if you don't, while an Uber driver works when he sees fit. While McDonalds might expect their employees to work a regular schedule, it's very common in the service industry for the schedule to depend on the employee's acceptance of the shift. The…

From what I know it's pretty much one way in the service industry. The boss decides the schedule and will get rid of you if you don't adhere. With Uber it is explicit and expected that drivers only work when they feel like.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#204

Post by p0pcult » Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

Quinner wrote: post #172

p0pcult wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Before Uber (around 2010) LA County mandated that Taxis accept credit cards. I don't think I ever managed to get in a cab where the credit card reader wasn't mysteriously "broken."

There is a difference between an employee of a company breaking the law, and the company itself breaking the law.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#205

Post by Jochim » Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 12:39 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #203

Jochim wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With that said, working at McDonalds and paying a pension is completely different than working a gig job, because you are expected to work when scheduled and will be fired if you don't, while an Uber driver works when he sees fit. While McDonalds might expect their employees to work a regular schedule, it's very common in the service industry for the schedule to depend on the employee's acceptance of the shift. The…

From what I know it's pretty much one way in the service industry. The boss decides the schedule and will get rid of you if you don't adhere. With Uber it is explicit and expected that drivers only work when they feel like.

It really depends on the place. I've never encountered one where the manager had total control over who was working when. Availability would be requested before creating the schedule and one would be made up based on that. Even then, if you found you were scheduled for shifts you couldn't work you could request a change. Good managers would arrange it themselves, otherwise you'd have to organise a swap.

That's not to say they don't exist. Some managers will certainly retaliate against employees who don't conform.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#206

Post by hellojesus » Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 6:58 PM UTC

Jochim wrote: post #198

hellojesus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is the free market. People don't have to drive. It's a super low barrier to entry position and therefore is ultracompetitive. Drivers wouldn't drive if they wanted benefits. They would work elsewhere.

The free market solution of 70 years ago was to sell babies[0]. The willingness of the desperate to engage in an act is not affirmation of it's morality. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_selling#cite_ref-58

Why should we label a voluntary transaction as immoral so long as no third party harm is done? Seems that this is similar to adoption but with proceeds benefiting parents.

Maybe moral hazard in incentivizing peolple to produce children purely to sell, but I would imagine market dynamics would solve the supply issue when prices decline.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#207

Post by epgui » Fri, Mar 17, 2023, 6:48 AM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #130

epgui wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but my intuition tells me you're possibly under-estimating the proportion of voters who routinely vote against their self-interest without realizing it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that was >30% of voters. Assuming that number I just made up was correct, just for the sake of argument, the parent comment's question is very interesting: what does that say about voters' age…

It's worth considering that you're not really talking about their own self-interest. You're talking about what you think they should want. For example, anyone who likes the non-employee status of Uber driving will vote against it. Anyone who wants to be an employee is voting for lower wages, although higher benefits. They may prefer that, but not everyone does.

I don't disagree with you, and I think everything you just said was obvious... but you failed to entertain the question.

The question was "Assume that X, then is Y true?", the question was not "Is X true?".

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#208

Post by epgui » Fri, Mar 17, 2023, 6:49 AM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #97

epgui wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but my intuition tells me you're possibly under-estimating the proportion of voters who routinely vote against their self-interest without realizing it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that was >30% of voters. Assuming that number I just made up was correct, just for the sake of argument, the parent comment's question is very interesting: what does that say about voters' age…

> you're possibly under-estimating the proportion of voters who routinely vote against their self-interest without realizing it. Well if you know what people want better than themselves maybe we should just make you King.

Oof, reading comprehension! I never made that claim.

Also, the question was "Assume that X, then is Y true?", the question was not "Is X true?".

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#209

Post by throwaway56960 » Fri, Mar 17, 2023, 11:42 AM UTC

Strom wrote: post #133

weberer wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is wrong. At least in Finland, Wolt drivers are independent contractors. Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits. It is exploitative and the current government doesn't want to do anything to change it. Whenever I see a post on HN that says "In Europe, blah blah blah" it is bullshit 80% of the time. Sometimes the poster is extrapola…

> Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits. It's similar in neighboring Estonia. However the reasons are more than just willingness to work for peanuts. These people are also very willing to break the law. A lot of the workers are in the country with either tourist or student visas and aren't allowed to work. These delivery companies couldn'…

Given how much they earn it's very likely they're under the taxation threshold/within the standard tax break (eg. in Czechia if your total income tax is less than 1000 EUR you're not going to pay anything).

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#210

Post by throwaway56960 » Fri, Mar 17, 2023, 11:48 AM UTC

Jochim wrote: post #199

singeezie wrote: post #196

My brother and I are both Uber drivers. and i am totaling fighting him at the dinner table cuz…. for me, being contractor brings me so much needed things likeflexible hours and able to get surge extra pay, and write off things, so just no other way. But brother really wanted full time hours w/ health insurance and most importantly if injured or let go, he gets compensation and unemployment. TO EaCH his own!!!

Maybe it's different where you are but I'm not aware of any restrictions on the flexibility of working hours or pay when you're classified as an employee. The substantial difference is you'd accrue holiday pay pro-rata and be able to take statutory sick leave.

Employees in Europe have to have fixed amount of hours in predictable schedule. There's no way it could be the same. It definitely would outclass many workers who would like to earn side income.