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Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

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Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#91
post #28

Hilarious quote (notwithstanding the fact that bus drivers usually have to work shifts, also on weekends): > Almost all Visual Basic 6 programmers were content with what Visual Basic 6 did. They were happy to be bus drivers: to leave the office at 5 p.m. (or 4:30 p.m. on a really nice day) instead of working until midnight; to play with their families on weekends instead of trudging back to the office. They didn't la…

VB.NET wasn't that different as a language, it was more of a Python 2/3 situation. Lots of overall improvements, but not backwards compatible. Terrible, but not catastrophic. What MS did was break the whole ecosystem. VB6 had thousands of third-party libraries distributed as VBX/OCX controls. VB.NET had effectively zero, because it could only use the new WinForms controls. You could upgrade your codebase to VB.NET us…

This could be implied with your python comparison, but meanings of things changed as well. For example dim foo as integer(5) in vb6 would give you 6 elements (0-5) of a 16 bit numeric type. In .net it would give you 5 elements (0-4) of a 32 bit numeric type.

For those curious, a really good list of changes is here: http://www.thescarms.com/vbasic/vb6vsvbnet.aspx

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#92

Couple of thoughts: 1. Microsoft did a good thing at that time with Visual Basic. Building visual interfaces with RAD tools is the most efficient way, as defining visual elements with code is harder. VB was great at its time, Borland Delphi and C++ Builder were good, QT Builder was good, Windows Forms was good. Of course, why use good models when you can inflict pain and let people define UIs by using plain code? WPF…

WPF’s and Android’s approach are the best of both worlds. You get both a visual designer that can get you far, and human-editable XML, which is useful for more complicated layouts or for copy-pasting similar widgets around.

WPF is dead, now we have MAUI for both desktop and mobile development. Let's hope MS doesn't find a new shiny thing.

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#93
post #51

You know why Visual Basic was the best programming language ever made? Because it wasn't a programming language. Nerds just can't wrap their heads around this idea: no normal person wants to be a programmer. But they do want to make little custom things to help them get stuff done in life. Just like nobody wants to be a plumber, but they do want to be able to fix their faucet.

Sorta like Excel, then?

You can program Excel using Visual Basic for Applications. At one of my former workplaces, a backend colleague of mine built a functional prototype of a new feature in Excel using VBA in far less time it took whole UI + frontend teams to build the same.

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#94
post #28

Hilarious quote (notwithstanding the fact that bus drivers usually have to work shifts, also on weekends): > Almost all Visual Basic 6 programmers were content with what Visual Basic 6 did. They were happy to be bus drivers: to leave the office at 5 p.m. (or 4:30 p.m. on a really nice day) instead of working until midnight; to play with their families on weekends instead of trudging back to the office. They didn't la…

VB to VB.NET was more to do with .NET arriving with the .NET Framework, and one of the reasons for the .NET Framework was all about keeping up with the (at the time) amazing framework/core library that Java had. It was also about web front ends which of course VB6 could not do.

In the old days people used to custom-build massive CRUD desktop database applications for their company to use internally and I built some of those in VB6. Loads of UserControls nested inside each other, solutions with multiple DLLs, you could do it but it was really clunky. Error handling was rubbish. I had also built things in Java and could see what VB6 was missing. .NET fixed that.

So I guess the 3 percent of Visual Basic 6 bus drivers who actively wished to become fighter pilots were probably people who had used Java. Java was free, if you didnt want an IDE. Whereas VB6 was actually quite expensive (can anyone remember the cost of a VB6 Pro license?)

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#95
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the implication was that his radical puritanism left him unemployable except as a literal bus driver.

Very droll, but incorrect. Also, I believe the word you're looking for is purism . I'll certainly go along with that. Also also, out of curiosity, where did you dredge up the "he"?

For what it's worth, the male form is generally used when gender is unknown. I suspect those linguistic defaults will start changing soon.

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#96
The WYSIWYG GUI builder that VB provided, I have never encountered afterwards again in quite that manner.

Now, in VBs heyday the field of UX design we now have as a profession adjacent to software development was in its infancy and was usually an implicit part of the developers job. What was lost with the demise of the RAD tools was a potentially shared medium of expression. Today designers build Potemkin villages in Figma and the likes, throw them over the fence and as a developer I then need to reverse-engineer them. How much more productive would it be if they didn't throw something over the fence but would actually build the UI in the same tool that the developer uses to write the logic behind it?

And another thing: I don't know if I had gotten into the field without BASIC. I started with QBasic, because it was the only thing readily available and switched over to VB when I got my hands on a students' edition. The thing that distinguished these two from educational environments like Scratch or Logo is that I could build actually useful stuff for myself with it.

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#98
post #85

They're missed only VB Dos version. https://twitter.com/dosnostalgic/status/803339511845552128?l...

They didn't: "Visual Basic's initial release in 1991 was followed by five major versions (not including an ill-fated version for DOS). By the time Visual Basic 6.0 was released in 1998, its dominance was absolute"

TBH, VB for DOS was indeed not very successful, and while fun as a concept (I've recently coded a Wordle-clone with it it), all things considered it's not very practical nor sensible.

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#99
Ideally we should have a modern programming language and environment that

a) is very easy to use for new comers and people that aren't professionals to build small functionalities and link different functionalities together

b) has visual components (so this disqualifies Python)

c) it is flexible and can be used by seasoned professionals to build complex things

The complexity of the programming should be gradual, i.e. if you are a beginner, if you are learning, if you don't plan to be a full time programmer but you need to build something very simple, it should be possible.

When I studied programming in highschool, the tool of choice was at first Turbo Pascal. Using Turbo Vision it was easy for US to construct simple text-based UIs and using BGI allowed us to dabble with graphics and draw simple things in a simple and straight forward way.

Now, if I have to explain to a potential beginner that in order to build a simple to do app he should learn: HTML, CSS, Typescript, React, install VS Code, install VS Code extensions, linters, NPM, sass, less and tens of packages, just to be able to start, he might feel a bit discouraged and want to become a cab driver instead.

But if I, in a totally unmodern, uncool, unwelcomed by community way I tell him to open Notepad and show him a few bits such as Ok and alert("Ok") he might discover a taste for programming, and start to learn his way up to building something.

Re: Something Pretty Right: The History and Legacy of Visual Basic

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> visual programming has never taken off, despite countless attempts over the past few decades. It has, in some niches like Unreal Blueprints. I think one of the reasons it doesn't become more popular is because most visual programming is just a more cumbersome and slow way of programming. It's stringing the same concepts together in the same way, but slowly and tediously with a mouse. Non-tech users wouldn't know wh…

> It has, in some niches like Unreal Blueprints. [...] I think one of the reasons it doesn't become more popular is because most visual programming is just a more cumbersome and slow way of programming. It's stringing the same concepts together in the same way, but slowly and tediously with a mouse. The latter bit basically perfectly describes Unreal Blueprints :-P. It was hyped when it first came out and for some ti…

I'm the last to defend visual programming, it's mostly spaghetti nonsense and you'd be better of with an actual programming language for most complexity levels -- but I think there's a viable niche for stuff that satisfies both of the following:

(a) it's simple and it strings together off-the-shelf components;

(b) it has an intuitive, well-defined computational model

examples: defining compositions of matrix transformations for camera angles, defining data pipelines (read from this source, do these operations, write to that sink), very simple automation Apple Shortcuts-style (whenever I receive a message from this number, make a note on this file, etc.)

As soon as you venture into general-purpose territory, visual programming is just a disaster. Which is a problem because you have no way to convert your mini-idea into something usable, and you always find yourself wishing you had started with a normal script.

I tend to stay very far away, but it does have its moments admittedly.

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