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Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

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Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#41

Post by BiteCode_dev »

Jensson wrote: post #24
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

> Also, unlike GPT-3, it will roll dice for you I'd question the fairness of those rolls. But yeah, DMing seems like an excellent fit for these models. But you probably need to track hitpoints and stats separately, GPT-4 can't do math either. Or I guess it not doing math might be a feature, that way it will tell you what reasonably happens with fuzzy logic, might be a more immersive experience.

You don't need it to be fair, you need it to be fun. Most video games play with randomness so that the distribution serves the gameplay, sometimes bypassing completely the RNG to balance frustration/satisfaction.

GPT can learn do to that: not providing true randomness, but the illusion of it to serve the game.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#42

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

mhd wrote: post #32
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

> My initial impressions are that GPT-4 is nearly as competent as a human DM I wonder what kind of campaigns we're talking about here. I mean, if it's just mindless modern encounter-based design, sure, I can believe that. Kicking down doors, rolling for initiative, GOTO 10. But even mildly more moderate DM work like re-jiggering set up monsters to react to the actions of the players (in e.g. a Caves of Chaos type of…

See, that's the thing.

No matter how much effort you put in to prompting and coaxing it, GPT-3 really couldn't manage anything but the simplest encounter-based game design.

There were things that GPT-3 did really well -- it could write you a 600-word essay on the characteristics and atmosphere of each chamber or passage you find yourself in -- but it couldn't stick to a narrative or engage in anything resembling long-term planning. So, ultimately, you're left with something quite strange and dreamlike: A campaign that's vividly -- even hyper-realistically -- described, but where nothing makes sense and there's no logical continuity over time.

GPT-4 knows what it's doing, though. It's very different. As far as I can tell right now, it combines the outstanding descriptive capabilities of GPT-3 with the ability to (a) remember things it has previously said and establish logical relations over time, and (b) make sure that the campaign appropriately mirrors a "normal" D&D campaign. GPT-3 would frequently mess up and have you fight dragons at Level 1; GPT-4 more appropriately sticks to goblins and bandits. And, when it comes to tactics, pacing, etc., it's really quite good. I suppose it's a little bit conventionally-minded, but that's to be expected.

Almost scary to think that it'll only get better from here on out, because GPT-4 is damn near "good human DM" tier, and already much better than a bad DM.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#43

Post by xnorswap »

hresvelgr wrote: post #13

I feel that list articles don't meet the standard for a good HN submission. In the interest of discussing tabletop map tools, one that isn't mentioned which is frankly amazing is: TaleSpire[1]. The quality of their asset packs for building maps is fantastic and you can actually play with friends using it. [1] https://talespire.com/

I wish they had a system where the DM could buy up to N seats and a free "player only" client for connecting in.

Requiring the players to make that kind of upfront investment can put people off from engaging at all.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#44

Post by andrepd »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

That's exactly what everyone said about GPT3, two or three years ago

> Before, you couldn't have a chatbot run a D&D campaign. But GPT3 is a solid DM

and then when all the hype died down to acceptable levels, turns out it was not. So forgive me if I stay skeptical until I see convincing evidence.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#45

Post by zug_zug »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

Played a solo-campgain with GPT4 for 1-2 hours yesterday, summary:

- Created character sheet for me, at desired level with spells and abilities

- Was able to add a cat to the game upon request

- Took hints.

- Was an outstanding writer, far better than any DM in terms of sensory descriptions and articulation

- Had to ask it to only tell 5 paragraphs at a time

- Performed combat rolls and math, all apparently correctly for a long while

- The first 20 rolls were all greater than 10, asked it give more random rolls and it seemingly did for a while

- Added elements on the fly consistently without losing track mostly

- Used puzzles and challenges and created a sense of danger. Adapted well on the fly to unusual character behavior (guessing an unreasonable answer for a puzzle solution).

- After a few hours it started confusing classes in my party (I think there is some context window). It forgot I had agonizing blast after a few hours.

- Sometimes fudged distances

Overall for a DM with infinite patience and an entirely customizable campaign on the fly with no need to plan/recover it seems promising at first. But some sort of prompt engineering will eventually prove necessary i think.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#46

Post by recuter »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

Can confirm, saw somebody post this here the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-89vnqxkFg

I don't think it is a matter of years, it is a matter of months.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#47

Post by thom »

mhd wrote: post #32
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

> My initial impressions are that GPT-4 is nearly as competent as a human DM I wonder what kind of campaigns we're talking about here. I mean, if it's just mindless modern encounter-based design, sure, I can believe that. Kicking down doors, rolling for initiative, GOTO 10. But even mildly more moderate DM work like re-jiggering set up monsters to react to the actions of the players (in e.g. a Caves of Chaos type of…

I've been extremely impressed with GPT-4 so far, generating a campaign for my kids. The encounters it created were very well fleshed out (monsters, minions, stats and abilities for all, including very flavourful lair actions for bosses). It's given me NPCs and sample dialogue for each, locations, and a central storyline that is well-threaded throughout. I was genuinely astonished even at its first attempt. I don't know if it could stand up on its own as an interactive dungeon master, but as a tool I am loving it.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#48

Post by simonh »

zug_zug wrote: post #45
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

Played a solo-campgain with GPT4 for 1-2 hours yesterday, summary: - Created character sheet for me, at desired level with spells and abilities - Was able to add a cat to the game upon request - Took hints. - Was an outstanding writer, far better than any DM in terms of sensory descriptions and articulation - Had to ask it to only tell 5 paragraphs at a time - Performed combat rolls and math, all apparently correctly…

It might be possible to 'extend' the context window by summarising important information from time to time, to refresh it's memory.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#49

Post by simonh »

hhjinks wrote: post #37
Jensson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, unlike GPT-3, it will roll dice for you I'd question the fairness of those rolls. But yeah, DMing seems like an excellent fit for these models. But you probably need to track hitpoints and stats separately, GPT-4 can't do math either. Or I guess it not doing math might be a feature, that way it will tell you what reasonably happens with fuzzy logic, might be a more immersive experience.

It would be interesting to see the dsitribution of dice rolls when asking GPT-3 and 4 to roll a dice repeatedly.

I hope they didn't train it on transcripts of XKCD.

https://xkcd.com/221/

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#50

Post by keithalewis »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

But can GPT-4 suggest tunes for Nero to play while Rome burns?
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