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Shoshikantetsu

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Re: Shoshikantetsu

#21

Post by GolDDranks »

myrloc wrote: post #14

This makes me wonder, does Japanese have an equivalent to the Chinese concept of a chengyu?

Japanese has 熟語 jukugo, which is similar (if I understand the concept of a chengyu correctly): a set phrase of Chinese characters. The famous case are the 4 character set phrases, 四字熟語 yojijukugo, which are mentioned in the article, but there are other kinds too.

Besides that, there is 慣用句 kanyouku, which means just an idiom in general, and isn't restricted to kanji expressions. And 決まり文句 kimarimonku, which means something like a "cliche phrase".

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#22

Post by GolDDranks »

krackers wrote: post #7

Beyond idiomatic yojijukugo (or perhaps because of it?), 4 mora abbreviations seems to be really common in Japanese. E.g. "debadora" for "device driver" [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798995

They are indeed. I participated in phonology seminar in Tokyo U years back, and it was very interesting. According to the prof, Japanese phonology definitely has a tendency to use "moraic foots", that is, units of two mora, as a preferred unit of morphophonologic processes, which then maps to abbreviations of two-word phrases where each of the words get their own foot: deba-dora.

I'd say that yojijukugo are not necessarily directly related, as the readings of the kanji can be one or two mora, so there's some variability in the structure of the readings of yojijukugo.

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#23

Post by wenyuanyu »

justusw wrote: post #19
rippercushions wrote: post #3

Many (but not all) Japanese four-character idioms ( yojijukugo ) are actually Chinese imports, and they're IMHO far more prevalent in that language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengyu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yojijukugo

It makes for a fun bridging the gap cultural experience when talking to Chinese people about the Chinese idioms you learn in Japanese class. Even the pronunciation is so similar (I mean, of course it is, duh). My favorite one is 吴越同舟 or 呉越同舟 (Wú Yuè tóng zhōu) meaning people of different backgrounds finding themselves having to work together. https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E5%90%B4%E8%B6%8A%E5%90%8C%E8%88%... https://jis…

It's indeed a regrettable circumstance that the diplomatic ties between the two countries don't reflect their cultural similarities. My parents, who are Chinese and in their 60s, managed to travel around Japan without knowing Japanese or English. They successfully took trains, hailed taxis, and communicated with locals using just a pen and paper, ultimately enjoying their trip.

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#25

Post by GolDDranks »

GolDDranks wrote: post #22
krackers wrote: post #7

Beyond idiomatic yojijukugo (or perhaps because of it?), 4 mora abbreviations seems to be really common in Japanese. E.g. "debadora" for "device driver" [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798995

They are indeed. I participated in phonology seminar in Tokyo U years back, and it was very interesting. According to the prof, Japanese phonology definitely has a tendency to use "moraic foots", that is, units of two mora, as a preferred unit of morphophonologic processes, which then maps to abbreviations of two-word phrases where each of the words get their own foot: deba-dora. I'd say that yojijukugo are not neces…

That being said, people often say that because of moras and foots, syllables have no place in Japanese phonology, but that's not true. Japanese pitch accent patterns (of Tokyo Japanese) depend on the syllabic structure.

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#26

Post by kinbiko »

rippercushions wrote: post #4
mcqueenjordan wrote: post #2

Very nice, I also like the other yojijukugo displayed at the bottom, especially jyuunintoiro. I enjoy (what I perceive as) the subtle wordplay of having two different readings of the same character (ten) in the word, hinting at the sort of "more than one way to skin a cat" theme of the word. Literally, the characters are "ten people ten colors", but the two "tens" are read differently: "jyuu" and "to" respectively, b…

In some sense yojijukugo are the original memes, in that they can be riffed off for humorous purposes. For example, the Japanese idiom for "the strong devour the weak" is 弱肉強食 jakuniku kyuushoku (the meat of the weak is the food of the strong), but you can instead say 焼肉定食 yakuniku teishoku (lit. grilled meat set meal) for laughs, and rakugo comedian Jakusaburo Katsura released an album called 雀肉共食 jakuniku kyuushoku…

強 and 共 are read kyou, not kyuu

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#27

Post by lifthrasiir »

wenyuanyu wrote: post #18
dbtc wrote: post #10

I like it a lot. Do these characters make sense as a Chinese phrase as well? Chū zhì guàn chè ?

Yes, it makes sense, but I have not seen this idiom used in China. In China, a widely used idiom of similar meaning is 坚持初心 (jiān chí chū xīn)

It seems that 矢志不渝 [1] is a more close analogue in that this exact four-letter form is always used. The Korean version is substantially different too, it's 初志一貫 (초지일관 Chojiilgwan).

[1] https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%9F%A2%E5%BF%97%E4%B8%8D%E6%...

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#28

Post by whoevercares »

dbtc wrote: post #10

I like it a lot. Do these characters make sense as a Chinese phrase as well? Chū zhì guàn chè ?

While making perfect sense, it just feels slightly weird due to the order and IMHO less beautiful to its equivalent. In Chinese it’s 不渝 “unshakable” instead of 贯彻(insist)

Re: Shoshikantetsu

#29

Post by wenyuanyu »

lifthrasiir wrote: post #27
wenyuanyu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it makes sense, but I have not seen this idiom used in China. In China, a widely used idiom of similar meaning is 坚持初心 (jiān chí chū xīn)

It seems that 矢志不渝 [1] is a more close analogue in that this exact four-letter form is always used. The Korean version is substantially different too, it's 初志一貫 (초지일관 Chojiilgwan ). [1] https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%9F%A2%E5%BF%97%E4%B8%8D%E6%...

As a Chinese person, I perceive "初志" as having a connotation of "original" or "initial" intentions, whereas "矢志" simply implies determined wishes or promises without emphasizing the "initial" aspect. While I'm not an expert in Japanese, my understanding is based on the Chinese perspective, and the actual meaning in Japanese might differ. It's intriguing to see how these nuances can vary across languages and cultures.
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