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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was said work performed by a licensed individual? Fun fact - In some states, contracts with unlicensed contractors are unenforceable.

I have had incredibly atrocious work done by licensed individuals of all stripes. In one case they took out a mechanics lien on the house when I refused to pay for unfinished and shoddy work and then one of their workers assaulted my wife. - Horizontal exhaust run from a furnace that was 25x longer than specified by the manufacturer - Putting registers in very wrong places (like 2 in one room and 0 in another instead…

What a nightmare! I hope you filed a complaint

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would recommend listening to the Ezra Klein show interview with one of the main authors of the NetZero Princeton report. It is not recklessly optimistic, but I was surprised to finish it and have a sense "hell, maybe we might actually pull this off". https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas... The title is a bit click-baity, so ignore that.

I'll read the report and watch this interview over the next few days. This looks really interesting. I hope it serves to realign some of my thinking. Thanks for posting this.

Note also that Ezra is currently really into his "why can't we do stuff any more phase" and has had a couple of good shows and a couple of NYT op-eds about it, plus a whole book on the topic. He's particularly oriented now, as a multi-year CA resident, on how this cannot be blamed on partisan stuff, since even (or especially) in "blue" states where Democrats hold all the power, stuff still does not happen.

I don't like his conclusions, but it is hard to argue with them (at least for me).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#793
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear your concerns! Just want to reiterate (since this is one of the top comments) no internet connectivity is required to operate the system. We will have integrations that also allow you to change the setpoint with your home system of choice. We're not interested in holding people hostage, we want to make the best way to heat and cool your home, and make it easy to get. If you're willing to turn on wifi, you can…

> We're not interested in holding people hostage This one isn't your fault, but many people aren't going to believe you. What they will hear is "We're not interested in holding people hostage (until we need some of that sweet subscription revenue)". And they'll know that features can be paywalled with a simple firmware update.

Or "We're not interested in holding people hostage (but the people that acquire us will be)".

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#794
post #735

I always wondered why the A/C units installed in the US do not make heat as well. In europe I have seen a push for this kind of units for at least 20 years now, to the point that I don't think anyone has bought anything else for the past 10. It seems your challenge is more about changing a status quo market then introducing a technology disruption that it's already been there for a long time now.

In the South-East US we've used Heat Pumps for at least 35-40+ years. Probably longer, I'm just lowering the number because I was a kid and don't know when they became the norm exactly. We don't have strong winters here so even the older heat pumps were fine with keeping houses warm. And we had/have resistive electric heating to supplement if the temp dropped too fast or too low.

You're right, heat pumps have been around for a while, but they're only at 15% market share across the whole US. The Southeast, for a few different reasons, has the highest market share. (1) It doesn't get that cold, and magnitude of heating/cooling loads are close enough that single stage equipment provides an OK experience. (2) There's very little natural gas infrastructure.

Cold weather heat pumps have recently become popular and enable increased adoption in the northeast, and the fact they're so efficient means they're competitive even in areas with a lot of natural gas infrastructure.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#795
I really admire what you all are doing.

I am building a house and I just spent countless hours obsessing over the best way to approach HVAC. It's a bewildering topic, thick on opinion, heuristic, and wisdom that's of questionable recency.

What I want is almost exactly what you describe. A system that holistically optimizes for upfront cost, operating cost, sustainability, temperature, humidity, room-to-room preference/utilization patterns, exhaust of indoor pollution, filtration of outdoor pollution, and ease of maintenance. In the process, I realized that:

- Most professionals pick equipment that operates on these things independently, and hope for the best, based on experience.

- The ability to comparison shop or get definitive answers on things is very limited.

- All the tax incentives don't seem to offset the upfront cost of the machinery that qualifies for incentives.

- A lot of professionals are not up to date on their knowledge. I love my general contractor dearly...but he's old school and I had to teach him what an HRV was.

After all of that research, I ended up opting for a very conventional ducted gas furnace + A/C, with an HRV.

So you're really speaking my language with what you are describing. Some of the objections people have raised are things I've come across in my own research. But it sounds like you're trying to build something that attacks the whole problem at once, probably understanding that piecemeal solutions will get you stuck having to work within confines of the status quo.

But, if you succeed, you might stake out a novel model, like Tesla or direct-to-consumer insurance. Sounds very risky, but I wish you all the best.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was said work performed by a licensed individual? Fun fact - In some states, contracts with unlicensed contractors are unenforceable.

I have had incredibly atrocious work done by licensed individuals of all stripes. In one case they took out a mechanics lien on the house when I refused to pay for unfinished and shoddy work and then one of their workers assaulted my wife. - Horizontal exhaust run from a furnace that was 25x longer than specified by the manufacturer - Putting registers in very wrong places (like 2 in one room and 0 in another instead…

Geez, sorry you dealt with that. In my town, this would never pass inspection, which certainly costs something in taxes, permits, and labor cost, but I think it would be difficult to end up saddled with bad work.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#797
How does your heat pump system work with ERVs and HRVs that bring fresh air into the home directly for the blower in the furnace? How well do heat pumps work to remove humidity from spray foamed houses (rim joists, walls, attic) vs a regular AC unit? I suffer from high humidity after spray foaming my house and wish I could go back and undo it.

Will this work in a 2550sqft house?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#798
post #623
post #622

My crappy coil keeps leaking every odd year and the refrigerant cost so much to replace. I hate the thin coils being created nowadays, not built to last at all.

Indoor or outdoor coil, copper tube-and-fin or aluminum microchannel?

Indoor copper in the attic, the typical warrantied coils but they don’t cover recharging refrigerant

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll read the report and watch this interview over the next few days. This looks really interesting. I hope it serves to realign some of my thinking. Thanks for posting this.

Note also that Ezra is currently really into his "why can't we do stuff any more phase" and has had a couple of good shows and a couple of NYT op-eds about it, plus a whole book on the topic. He's particularly oriented now, as a multi-year CA resident, on how this cannot be blamed on partisan stuff, since even (or especially) in "blue" states where Democrats hold all the power, stuff still does not happen. I don't li…

You reminded me of a funny segment in a famous George Carlin joke about religion. My apologies if you are a believer, please just take this as what it is: comedy.

"Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you’d expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would’ve been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago."

This is the kind of thing I think about when I watch reality happen and compare it to the fantasies people construct about what we can actually accomplish these days. You are right, this has nothing to do with political party; each having its own maddening twists and turns.

We just can't get things done. Not just when it comes to a large scale. I have two personal examples.

First, our street, which is 25 years old (I've been here since the neighborhood was built) was repaved twice and, I am told, will be repaved again next year.

Why? Was it in bad shape?

Not even close. You could almost play pool on this street. It is, for most intents and purposes, perfect. There was no need to touch it.

The same is true of our sidewalks. Again, 25 years old. They were fine. They came through, jack-hammered about 50% of it (non-contiguos, of course) and re-poured it all. It looks horrible now, because, of course, they used a different color concrete and the work itself looks like shit (not the same quality and care, they patterned it a bit different, etc).

Why? To keep the union guys busy. That's the only reason I can find. I don't understand why they didn't send them to neighborhoods where this was actually needed. We have plenty of those in Southern California.

I was just in Singapore on business for a couple of weeks. The streets and highways on this tiny nation (~ 12 x 30 miles) make the crap we drive on in SoCal every day truly look like third-world worthy roads. And the taxes we pay for road maintenance are some of the highest in the nation. The roads in Florida are luxurious compared to our pot-hole ridden streets and highways.

The other story has to do with our schools. Years ago, when my kids were in middle school, they had a science teacher that was anything but that. He is a Chiropractor who works as a science teacher. This guy is clueless and verbally abusive. For example, he told the kids that the moon does not spin about its axis. If anyone questioned him, he would get angry. And that's just one example of many. Yes, he is still there. We could not get him fired or reassigned to basket-weaving class. There are kids coming out of that school who do not have parents with scientific training who come out believing all sorts of nonsense.

Why does this happen? Is it incompetence? Is it that our culture has devolved into something we should be ashamed of? I really don't know. What I do know is that countries like China are placing one foot in front of the other while, in the US, we can't do anything at scale, we waste time and money rebuilding streets and sidewalks that are just fine and we are causing our kids serious mental damage by teaching them absolute bullshit at every level.

Don't get me started about 20-somethings. I was just at the SxSW conference in Austin. I had a few very interesting conversations with 20-somethings who, in this case, actually had it together. A couple of the US. Most of the rest from other countries. The kids from the US gave me a perspective on what their peers are being taught and how they think that I honestly wish I did not have. To parrot George Carlin...

Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best the US can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of an advanced nation. This is the kind of shit you’d expect from a dictator with a bad attitude running a banana republic.

I am trying very hard not to be a pessimist when it comes to our future. I have to admit the results in front of me make it difficult to switch to a half-full view of the US. Frankly, in this environment, one can almost understand and justify the need for someone like Donald Trump. You actually need someone with enough power and an I-don't-give-a-fuck attitude to come in, rip this putrid system apart to the studs and rebuild it into something that actually works.

So, here we are, talking about installing billions of solar panels (made in China) and billions of batteries (made in China) and billions of inverters, cables, electrical components, etc. (all made in China) when we can't maintain our roads and stop teaching our kids bullshit.

This will represent the largest-ever transfer of wealth from one nation to another in the history of humanity. We will forever be dependent on China for almost everything if we continue down this path. These massive installations will require parts and materials, all coming from China. If the Chinese were smart --and they are, very much so-- they would carefully come up with a way to implement what I am going to call "sensible" failure rate on the products they sell us. This will guarantee millions of units per year in sales for replacement components in support of our wonderful power generation and distribution system...forever. It's like selling drugs to a drug addict.

This is one of the reasons for which I think of nuclear and wind as potential alternatives to solar (and I do like solar). I think the supply chains for these forms of energy can be constrained to the US, Europe and countries outside of China. I could be wrong, of course. I just think it is beyond stupid to send everything to China and not think strategically at all.

It reminds me of "Fire one million":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0mO6UY6uTg

(sorry, that was a bit of a rant)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#800
post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear a lot of horror stories from the UK about this, that people pay upwards of £500 and still cold in their homes. There are a lot of cowboy installers going around but even those who are qualified can't be reached for aftercare/handoff etc. Fiddling with settings at 50p/kWh is not a great experience. On that note I think biopropane will be the solution for Europe.

> I hear a lot of horror stories from the UK about this, that people pay upwards of £500 £500 for what? Total cost for a month? A year? The monthly average of a full year of costs. The monthly average cost thing is common in NL; people often have no clue other than knowing the monthly average cost. And it's often estimated beforehand by the energy company. It's assumed to be correct. Anyway, people need to check the…

A great deal of the problem is the inability to understand basic maths. This whole nonsense about a £2000 a year cap or whatever, rather than something nice and simple like a 35p/kWh electric cap, or a 7p/kWh gas cap, is both a symptom and the cause.

The number of homes that could have improvements in insulation for tiny costs is astounding, but somehow insulating a home is some lefty woke thing.

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