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A Philosopher on Drugs

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Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#11

Post by mehwoot »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth

Because the very changes in brain chemistry you're talking about affect your ability to determine whether something is real or not.

Many psychedelics cause Apophenia, Pareidolia and other disorders. In loose terms, the ability of your brain to determine what information is meaningful or not is affected and you begin to over interpret the meaningfulness of things that happen and your own thoughts. So your idle thought becomes some earth-shattering revelation.

Something similar can happen to people with Schizophrenia. They'll be walking down a street and see a license plate XUE-383 and the function of the brain that tells whether something is meaningful or not misfires, telling them that this is very important. The brain then tries to explain why this is incredibly important, hence hidden messages, spies, all sorts of things.

You can of course be on drugs or schizophrenic and understand this is what is happening but it's hard to override an emotion with logic.

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#12

Post by e_i_pi_2 »

e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #9
its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

I think of it similarly to the "fish in water" story - there's a lot of things about your perception that you won't can't really realize until they're changed - like how your nose is visible to your eyes and each eye has a blind spot - your brain filters out anything that's always there because it's not important to survival A sugar high does reveal a deeper truth about the way we enjoy sweet things, that you would n…

This even happens to people politically or emotionally, when you're exposed to something you weren't able to imagine before it changes the way you look at the world going forward

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#13

Post by samplatt »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

Most of the "real" truths psychedelics reveal are about ourselves, and they do it the exact same way a therapist does - by showing us there's a different way to think, exploring the results, comparing those results to what you thought was reality, and arrive at a hopefully more accurate end result.

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#14

Post by steve_adams_86 »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

> but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real""

That's a great question.

I think it's that psychedelics can cause profound changes to the way you perceive yourself and the world, and the insights from those experiences can be genuinely useful in practical and measurable ways. I haven't had an experience like that with sugar.

For example, my mom dying was extremely upsetting to me for quite a while. For some reason I was just angry about it. The way it happened, the way her death was drawn out, the suffering, the way people handled it – all of it sat in my mind and body like hot misery whenever I let myself think about it.

Then one day I had some psilocybin. I went for a walk with friends, climbed a tree, and sat and looked at the ocean for a while. In that tree I thought "I wonder what would happen if I thought about something awful?". I thought about my mom. Rather than get upset and angry like I normally would, something in my mind caused to me to recall how funny and playful she was. I started to think about that, how being angry was so different from the way she'd handle it, how that was something I loved about her. It made me intensely happy to realize that was a choice. For half a minute I was kind of ecstatic. I thought, wow, I can feel good. Remembering my mom can feel great.

And since then it always does. I've spoken to friends and acquaintances who lost their moms in the same way, and each time I've had a sort of fear of being a bad friend — what if I let my own loss get in the way of being a good friend? — and somehow that positivity persists and I can just focus on being supportive and empathetic.

None of that is more "real". The way my mom died is still awful. I just learned I didn't need to care anymore, so I don't. That's profound to me. Sugar's most profound effect on me is my brain convincing me that I want it when I arguably don't. That's fascinating in its own right, but a lot less interesting in the scheme of things.

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#15

Post by 52-6F-62 »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

I feel compelled to recommend a couple of books: Mind and Nature by Gregory Bateson and Alien Information Theory by Andrew Gallimore

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#16

Post by photochemsyn »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

If you find this topic interesting I'd recommend "Writing on Drugs" by Sadie Plant which is basically about the modern-European-centric cultural history of drugs and philosophy (feature Coleridge, Freud, etc.)

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/580859

For a broader overview of the global history of psychedelics, "Plants of the Gods" by Schultes, Hofmann, and Ratsch:

https://www.amazon.com/Plants-Gods-Sacred-Healing-Hallucinog...

Fundamentally, I'd say psychedelics explicitly reveal that our sensory-informated reality is really just a somewhat fickle map of reality. This is particularly seen in the visual field, where images from memory can get fed back into normal sensory processing. One of the more accurate pop-culture references to what this is like was seen in this image from the first "Matrix" movie:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/zymAc.gif

Under higher doses one can completely lose grasp of visual perception (a rather dangerous state to be in if one is around say, high cliffs etc., which accounts for all the cautionary advice about safe settings and so on) but in this sort of intermediate state one can still navigate using one's sensory-supplied map of reality, but it really is just a map, and we are really in a similar position to that of a blind person using echolocation to find their way around. That's the 'great insight' of psychedelics IMO (which also makes psychedelics an incredible aid for 3D visualization in the arts and sciences, I think).

They can, however, also be emotionally and psychologically disturbing (fear, panic, paranoia, etc. are not unheard of responses).

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#17

Post by vmoore »

The only person I can think of that described the psychedelic experience as much as possible was Terrence McKenna. What you have to realize is that such an experience is ineffable and can't be reduced to mere words. McKenna kind of described it, but not really. Each person's experience is different and subjective, yet at the same time having a common thread of being astonishing, earth shattering and cosmic (well, at least, for the positive experiences).

Personally, being on mushrooms for me was a simple reminder that we are the Universe experiencing itself, and that it's a very vast place, and a reminder that we live in Infinity itself. On psilocybin, time has no meaning, it's just a construct of society.

One idea I've always had that if we are going to be a space-faring species exploring the Universe, then psilocybin would be a useful tool for doing that, similar to the Spice Melange in Dune. Psilocybin opens up the senses and personally (for me) doesn't impair my motor skills. I've always had the fantasy of exploring the galaxy whilst tripping.

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#18

Post by polishdude20 »

corry wrote: post #3

Quite a read. I enjoyed it. He describes the point of view you get in certain altered states very well, poetically and with subtly that matches my experiences. I’m sure strict materialists will find his characterization of them unsatisfying, and maybe he should have railed against the other extreme (psychedelic woo woo mystics) a bit more to balance it out — he has one quick comment at the end warning against that si…

The Denial Of Death is a good book to read. Really explains how we hide from death at every turn and every action we take. Maybe if we did strip away those defenses, we'd go mad? Like, maybe we can't handle the void?

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#19

Post by eep_social »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

Another angle that others have not mentioned is the similarity in outcome and experience between psychedelics and deep, extended mediation practice.

The snootier mediation folks will dismiss psychedelics as a shortcut while still agreeing about the experience and outcome. As other replies have pointed out, the similarity is that both options enable an individual to examine and even change their perceptions. The meditation method is slower and gives the brain a lot of time and support for adjusting to this new perception. The drugs may or may not.

Re: A Philosopher on Drugs

#20

Post by cypherpunks01 »

its_ethan wrote: post #4

> But goodness, here I am, still philosophizing like a stoned undergrad in a black-lighted dorm room. Mhmm. Genuine question, and maybe it's just something I'd have to experience to really understand, but why is it so common for people to think psychedelics are opening us up to what is ""real"" or some deeper truth, instead of assuming that the experiences are just what happens when you completely overload brain chem…

It's because people can gain genuine realizations about themselves, about their relationship with the world, and generate creative new ideas that they can take back with them (back to normal life) after the trip ends.

If no useful or transformative ideas stuck around after the trip was over, then it would be just a sugar high.

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