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Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

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Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#421
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I hear the word “ethics” I always ask myself “whose”. I hate how people talk about ethics as if it was some non-controversial topic where everyone can clearly see what the “right” answers are. This world features a competition between radically opposed ethical systems. We don’t agree on whether ethics is objective (i.e. some people’s ethics are superior to those of others) or subjective (i.e. “superior” is j…

The brand is obvious- it's the author's ethics. Why shoehorn into someone else's brand? Sam Bankman-Fried claimed "Effective Altruiat" ethics. What is the value in demanding someone lie about their vrand?

Someone like Peter Singer - he’s very clear about what his first principles are, and that his first principles are very different from those of many other people. I think some of the conclusions he draws from those principles are horrific - e.g. painless infanticide should be legal with parental consent. But, whatever you think of him, nobody could accuse him of being non-transparent about what his principles are.

By contrast, these “AI ethics” people aren’t clear about what their first principles are, or how those principles differ from those of other people. In that regard, as horrible as Singer’s conclusions may be, he’s vastly more honest and transparent and self-aware than the average “AI ethicist”

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#422

What a strange comment section. A customer service chatbot telling your customers that an issue is solved, when the issue isn't solved, is a core product failure. It's also a Responsible AI issue. A code generation model suggesting GPL code without attribution is a core product failure and serious legal risk [1]. It's also a Responsible AI issue. A diffusion model generating child porn or nazi propaganda is a core pr…

You don't need an ethics team to tell you about those risks, they are pretty obvious. What you need is your legal team to tell you how risky it is, and management to decide how risk averse they want to be.

> What you need is your legal team to tell you how risky it is, and management to decide how risk averse they want to be.

No.

1. Even if you're not going to do any mitigation, you do need engineers and researchers to help do the risk analysis. It's a collaborative process; rarely can a lawyer provide a full risk analysis without asking questions of eng/research, and sometimes answering those questions requires doing novel R&D and/or non-trivial engineering work

2. What happens when the lawyers say "very risky" and management isn't willing to take that risk but also doesn't want to "sit out"? In that case, technical folks are needed who can help mitigate risks. Constraining and aligning the output of these models is non-trivial and in many cases remains a completely open research problem.

And that's only the legal risk. As my comment pointed out, there are also functional requirements. Consider a chip maker fabricating a new chip: eliminating bugs in the architecture demands hardware V&V, regardless of what legal determines about liability, because the chip doing what you want it to do is a core product functionality. Similar for most applications of text generation models (image less so, for now, but any integration with the real economy will introduce the same sort of core product functionality requirements).

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#423
post #420

These sorts of adjunct, off-to-the-side "ethics" teams are always corporate window dressing, and when push comes to shove they always get jettisoned when competition demands an increase in speed. I don't mean to start a flame war, but this is a reason why I think "Chief Diversity Officers" are such an ill-conceived notion. It's not that I don't think diversity in corporate environments is extremely valuable, but it's…

Perhaps, but the alternative to a CDO is just no CDO, right? Even if the CDO has marginal effectiveness, it seems better than not having one at all. Similarly, an ethics team over no ethics team seems preferable. A single individual on a team would easily be outnumber or ostracized, I'm not sure how that situation would produce better outcomes. I'd love to know what 'ethical AI' looks like when we exist in a system w…

We can argue about whether window dressing is better than no window dressing, or we can use our attention on arguments that actually matter.

It's like arguing about the amount of power drawn by electronics chargers in the context of global warming -- paying any attention to such details can suck the air out of the room we need to solve much more pressing issues where we can get much more traction.

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those two branches despise each other with intense passion. I never actually made this connection before, but having spent far too much time listening to both camps, this observation does ring true. Another observation I had is that there is an orthogonal axis to the safety/ethics dichotomy that follows a more scholastic approach, namely neuro/symbolism. These two branches correspond, roughly, to the debate between m…

> The symbolists place a heavier emphasis on model interpretability and believe learning emerges from a logical substrate, albeit at a much higher level of abstraction. These people still exist? Personally, I don’t think gradient descent is the way to AGI either (I think it’s efficient algorithmic search over the space of all computable programs), but I haven’t heard anything from the symbols crowd since the early 20…

>> These people still exist?

Of course, I just finished reviewing a few papers from ICLP (the International Conference of Logic Programming) 2023. This year there was a substantial machine learning element, most of it in the form of Inductive Logic Programming (i.e. logic programming for learning; ordinary logic programming is for reasoning). But also a few neuro-symbolic ones.

This September I was in the second IJCLR (International Joint Conference of Learning and Reasoning) where I helped run the Neuro-Symbolic part of the conference. Like the first year we had people from IBM, MIT, Stanford, etc etc (to clarify, my work is not in NeuroSymbolic AI, but I was asked to help).

Then in January there was the IBM Neuro-Symoblic workshop, again getting together people from academia and industry.

Yeah, there's interest in combining symbolic and statistical machine learning.

Just two data points about why (well because, why not, but):

a) Machine Learning really started out as symbolic machine learning, back in the '90s when people realised Expert Systems need too many rules to write by hand. A textbook to read about that era of Machine Learning is Tom Mitchell's "Machine Learning" (1997). The work the public at large knows as "machine learning" today was at the time mostly being published under the "Pattern Recognition" rubrik.

b) To the early pioneers in AI having two camps, of "statistical" and "symbolic" AI, or "connectionist" and "logic-based" AI, just wouldn't make any sense at all.

Consider Claude Shannon. Shannon was at the Dartmouth workshop were "Artificial Intelligence" was coined, in 1956. Shannon invented both logic gates (in his Master's thesis... what the fuck did I do in my Master's thesis?) and statistical language processing ("A Mathematical Theory of Communication"; where he also invented Information Theory; btw).

Or, take the first artificial neuron: the Pitts and McCulloch neuron, first described in 1943, by er, by Pitts and McCulloch, as luck would have it. The Pitts & McCulloch neuron was a self-programming logic gate, a propositional logic circuit.

Or, of course, take Turing. Turing described Turing Machines in the language of the first order predicate calculus, a.k.a. First Order Logic (mainly because he was following from Gödel's work) and also described "the child machine", a computer that would learn, like a child.

To be honest, I don't really understand when or why the split happened, between "learning" and "reasoning". Anyone who knows how to fill in the blanks, you're welcome. But it's clear to me that having one without the other is just dumb. If not downright impossible.

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The symbolists place a heavier emphasis on model interpretability and believe learning emerges from a logical substrate, albeit at a much higher level of abstraction. These people still exist? Personally, I don’t think gradient descent is the way to AGI either (I think it’s efficient algorithmic search over the space of all computable programs), but I haven’t heard anything from the symbols crowd since the early 20…

They can’t speak over all the cooling noise coming from the GPU farm.

You sir/ma'am, win the internets today.

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#426
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean if you want an honest answer, nuke any place that's making GPUs/TPUs. I mean, they don't spring up out of the ground and at least our current models require insane amounts of GPU/TPU based compute. The factories are fragile billion dollar facilities, well beyond the difficulty of extracting uranium. Now, that probably just delays the world eating machine for some time, but it would be a hell of a lot harder to…

Didn't work for the luddites.

And yet it mostly has worked for nuclear weapons.

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#427
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, yes that wasn't clear. Scott Alexander coined most of them in "I can tolerate anything except the outgroup" [1] Red & blue are exactly what a U.S reader would think they are. "Grey" is an attempt by Scott to define something else, loosely hacker-ish / rationalist (you can tell who he thinks the cool people are). "Rainbow tribe" I just made up, but I think you can guess what I mean now based on context. Alignme…

Gray: confederate army Blue: union army Red: British army Rainbow: Lovely, prismatic army that covers everyone else? I still don't understand. You're saying words of import without landing the plane, IMHO.

Rainbow was pointless for him to introduce since he then said "blue or rainbow" and rainbow would definitely fold into blue.

Read the essay if you want the full story. Short version: Blue is a cluster of Democrat/left/liberal/urban. Red is a cluster of Republican/right/conservative/rural. Gray is a smaller niche of like Libertarian/Silicon Valley/nerds.

Ethics vs alignment is actually a perfect example of the Blue/Gray split. How dare you act like your science fiction fantasies are real when this tech is harming marginalized communities? vs. How dare you waste time on mandating representation in generated art when this thing is going to kill us all?

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#428

These sorts of adjunct, off-to-the-side "ethics" teams are always corporate window dressing, and when push comes to shove they always get jettisoned when competition demands an increase in speed. I don't mean to start a flame war, but this is a reason why I think "Chief Diversity Officers" are such an ill-conceived notion. It's not that I don't think diversity in corporate environments is extremely valuable, but it's…

By your definition the entire board of directors is irrelevant since they don't own any part of the business verticals directly like the CEO, CTO, etc. Should they be removed too?

This is a non sequitur if ever I've seen one. The board of directors has the specific ability to fire the leadership of the company, that's where they get their influence and power.

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#429
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. People should understand AI safety != AI ethics. AI safety has two branches, AI ethics and AI alignment. Those two branches despise each other with intense passion. The alignment branch (responsible for developing RLHF->ChatGPT) believes AI ethics is completely trivial, and distracts attention away from existential risks. The ethics branch (responsible for all the media attention about racist AIs/bias etc) view…

> It seems increasingly that the concerns from the ethics branch have not come to pass at all. Neither have the concerns from AI alignment folk. I’d say both groups are pretty far off (and both fairly useless), but the ethics folks are at least a little closer to reality. Of course, AI alignment folks have the advantage that they can keep pushing the time frame forward and saying it’s perpetually just around the corn…

> Neither have the concerns from AI alignment folk.

Uh, yeah. We wouldn't be having these discussions if they had. There is no reason whatsoever to assume AI alignment is just going to work itself out. Sure, it's possible, but it's also possible to survive a bullet in the brain. Would you take the chance?

Re: Microsoft lays off one of its responsible AI teams

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI alignment people are the group who believe “responsibly” means, centrally, bringing AGI to existence as fast as possible From what I’ve seen it’s the exact opposite? They want AI development to slow down so we can get it right and make it safe. There are people who are trying to speed it up but that seems like the opposite of alignment to me

> From what I’ve seen it’s the exact opposite? They want AI development to slow down so we can get it right and make it safe. The only way that the alignment faction wants to slow things down is in that they want to maintain tight control of models and gated access to assure “proper” use. This does have an effect of slowing certain kinds of development, as broader access to build around models without centralized con…

https://aisafety.world/tiles/ lists dozens of institutions. Each hold different positions on AI development, but almost none of them hold the position that you ascribe to their "faction", maybe with the exception of OpenAI.
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