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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#771

Post by aidenn0 »

c_o_n_v_e_x wrote: post #687
freeopinion wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the USA and have seen plenty of atrocious work. I currently have the best HVAC expert in the world. YMMV.

Was said work performed by a licensed individual? Fun fact - In some states, contracts with unlicensed contractors are unenforceable.

I have had incredibly atrocious work done by licensed individuals of all stripes. In one case they took out a mechanics lien on the house when I refused to pay for unfinished and shoddy work and then one of their workers assaulted my wife.

- Horizontal exhaust run from a furnace that was 25x longer than specified by the manufacturer

- Putting registers in very wrong places (like 2 in one room and 0 in another instead of one in each)

- (For Electrical) Rather than using junction boxes, just wire-nut together some Romex in random places in the attic.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#772

Post by mydriasis »

bozertron wrote: post #758
mydriasis wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, that's me! We wound up getting a pellet stove, super cheap to operate and very efficient so far, but I'd also be open to a heat pump at the right price range. We're some of the few with high quality Internet. Lots of my neighbors have wood burning stoves or pellet burners, because they're so cheap to operate compared to the next possibility, which is propane, a very expensive fossil fuel. Pellets being renewable…

Me too! Rural and temperate? Great. Rural and cold? Not great. I have a heat pump that's rated to -30C. The energy benefits fall off a cliff when it gets cold. Can use as primary in the summer and parts of the shoulder seasons. Useless in the winter from a cost perspective. I think the direction of the industry is great. Needs some R&D cycles to become a primary for all.

Aw, bummer. Yeah, we're up in Ohio -- not the coldest, but wintery enough. Here's hope for the future! Like you said, perhaps with enough R&D...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#774

Post by tguvot »

cmui wrote: post #673
tguvot wrote: post #52

Putting aside fact that homeowners can buy HVACs online and get it shipped, how it differs from mrcool ducted heatpump that, for example can be bought for under 4k for 3ton model and have DIY install (no vacuuming needed), besides nicer of external unit and prettier app ? as opposed to 12k for yours + 8k install ?

Yeah, its a good question. I think 'direct to homeowners' has generated some confusion that this is a DIY product. After a purchase we have one of our contractor partners perform the install, they also bring the unit with them, we don't ship the unit to you and expect you to find your own installer or DIY.

no confusion here. i was asking why it's triple the price for same functionality (before installation) ? with regards to total price including install: it pretty much same price as any central ducted heatpump that offered by lenox/trane/etc. what's the innovation here ?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#775

Post by j928734 »

If you're looking for ways to differentiate a heat pump product ... I have a 55k btu heat pump (bosch bova60) and it is loud (my neighbor, who is ~15-20ft away is complaining that it wakes him up at night) - as a result, I've been using too much backup heat (at temperatures when the heat pump would be perfectly sufficient). I would happily pay for a super-quiet outdoor unit.

the thermostat integration wasn't hard. and the bosch unit has a blower, so the "can it go into a central ducted system?" question was also easy.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#776

Post by kbuck »

uptown wrote: post #649

I wish some company would make more aesthetically pleasing ceiling cassette units suitable for residential use instead of the wall mounted mini-splits. Most cassettes are 24x24 which is great for commercial applications but a nonstarter for residential ceiling joist widths.

MrCool has a DIY cassette that is designed to fit between residential joists: https://mrcool.com/diy-ceiling-cassette/

No idea if it's any good though, and I don't really like the big logo and big black IR receiver.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#777

Post by phaedrus »

As a serious DIYer with engineering knowledge and a bit of HVAC understanding, I find the sleek/modern design in the pictures of this product to be the opposite of reassuring. (Maybe I'm not the target customer.) It's for the same reason that after initially being interested integrated solar generators, in the end I went with a solar system that, while sold as a kit, consisted of independent components. With a solar generator if the electronics go bad the whole thing (including expensive batteries) is potentially a write-off and not easily fixable. I fear the same thing with this.

I'm also looking askance at the picture or rendering (next to "Installation Process") showing the PVC drain pipe going _up_ before it goes horizontally. How does that drain? I realize a graphic designer was probably just trying to make it aesthetic without understanding how it really works, but you yourself do understand as you detail in your post.

I resonate with the idea of your mission and your description of current market deficiencies. I just wish the product were more like the solar kit I bought as separate components or the PC water cooling loop I pieced together from a web store that specializes in that. Maybe that's an unrealistic hope. But I don't have to like the over-integrated alternative.

(I realize heat pumps and air conditioners have a requirement that the components have to be appropriately sized to each other to work as a system. But that could be overcome with software that advises the consumer what parts work together. We currently spend equivalent effort on using software to lock the consumer out instead of helping them make informed choices.)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#778

Post by malfist »

cmui wrote: post #659
hcrisp wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, in fact a couple things in the pitch don't add up. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Where did they get this statistic? I already have a heat pump and know many that do too. Are we included in this 80M estimate? What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? They aren't going to replace their furnac…

Only 17% of homes have heat pumps at the moment. 80M (though I believe its closer to 88M) homes in the US are single family detached homes. What region are you in? Local contractor knowledge around heat pumps is quite regional.

> Only 17% of homes have heat pumps at the moment. 80M (though I believe its closer to 88M) homes in the US are single family detached homes.

> ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps.

Why would 13.6M homes with heat pumps need to replace their heat pump with a heat pump?

What percentage of that 80M single family homes have a climate that can run on heat pumps?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#779

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

robomartin wrote: post #686
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose that you want to switch over, say, Chicago, to be fully electric heat pump driven. Let's further suppose you want to do this over 25 years. There are just over 1M households in Chicago. If we assume (wrongly) that nobody has heat pumps today, that conversion needs to take place in 123 households every day of every year for the next 25 years. If the contractors don't work weekends, it's 153 households a…

> your hand wringing over heat-pump induced blackouts seems misplaced. I would very much appreciate it if we could keep to a mutually-respectful conversation rather than resorting to insults. We only learn if we respect each other's positions. I have no problem being wrong. Show me how and will forever be grateful. I have no problem with anyone challenging anything I say. Thanks for questioning my claim. I can't get…

There's a major study out of Princeton from a year or two ago that fully covers what is needed for full electrification with only renewables, and with mostly renewables. It covers all this much better than I could, especially here on HN:

https://netzeroamerica.princeton.edu/the-report

My take on that report is "yep, this would/will be a major effort, as large as anything we've ever done, but not much more than an order of magnitude beyond anything we've ever done".

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#780

Post by abakker »

rnk wrote: post #531
abakker wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently got quoted $17k for 2 zone mini split. I bought the tools, instructions, and watched youtube and spent $4500 total. At that savings, I don't need a warranty. I can just buy and install another system if it fails.

Can you explain a little more what you did? Just a little bit, like what brand, did you replace an existing home system. Who did the electrical, did you need duct work? I already have a forced gas system, you can just connect it up? If I only had say 4-5 rooms on one story it would be a lot easier.

Durastar 36k Dual head unit from ACwholesalers, buy 2 stage harbor freight vacuum pump, micron gauge from amazon, a bunch of manifolds, and fittings and adaptors from amazon, some NICE shredder core extraction tools, a NICE line set flaring tool, a pipe cutter, pre-insulated line set, 14/4 cable from outdoor unit to indoor units, 5/8 AC condensate pipe from indoor units outside, lots of zip ties, pipe wrap, and line hide. I pre-provisioned a 40amp breaker and an outdoor disconnect/breaker panel (and an extra 120v GFCI plug so i could easily run the vacuum pump). Sub-panels are your friend.

I used all Aluminum SER cable to run the sub panel and a copper whip from the outdoor unit to the breaker (terminals on the AC unit are rated for copper wire).

If you had a forced air gas system, you can get a heat pump coil and condenser to replace the AC unit. ACwholesalers has those too. If you are able to, you can add one to your system and run "dual fuel" where the heat pump runs down to about freezing, and only kicks on the gas for heat when it is outside the efficiency range of the heat pump (model dependent).

My house is annoying to condition. It was built in 1987 by people who had interesting notions about efficiency, space usage, and material selection. As a result, the surface area to volume ratio is pretty poor and it is not very efficient. the duct design is...TERRIBLE...and so a lot of the house wasn't served well by the HVAC.

I added a mini split to address the considerable heat load on the southern side of the house, and am working to replace the air handler and duct work entirely for the rest of the house.

Central air can do several things mini splits can't do, and that's why I want to keep it instead of just adding 4-8 more zones of minis splits, which would be WAY easier. 1. Air filtration, 2. Fresh air intake 3. Humidification 4. air mixing. it also seems to be the cheapest way to solve heat/cool + the things I just mentioned. Even with ducting. Design/Sizing/install is worse and harder. Leaking/poorly insulated ductwork can also cost a lot of energy and so takes a lot of effort to prevent.

HVAC as a mechanical system in homes is pretty awful, and the load calculations are frequently not well in line with the "theory" of system capabilities. Static pressure, air exchanges, etc all play Major roles in system sizing and make it very hard for technicians who do not live in a house to accurately evaluate the "real" load vs the theorized one.

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