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60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

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Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#61

Post by lordnacho »

hsn915 wrote: post #42
lordnacho wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's part of the socratic method. It's reasonable to ask why your country of birth owes you anything. Keep in mind not every country gives you citizenship from birth, so it raises the question of whether what you're saying really is correct. I would suggest if someone has worked somewhere for a decent amount of time they should not be disposed of so easily as the person in the article.

> It's part of the socratic method. But that question wasn't. It was bad faith "gotcha!" question.

I don't think so. The question is short but it illuminates an angle most people wouldn't think of. Or when they think of it, there's no satisfactory answer immediately apparent.

There's why does any country owe you, and why does your country of origin in particular owe you.

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#62

Post by kiliantics »

hsn915 wrote: post #4

No country other than your country of origin owes you a right to stay. It's not inhumane or something to have visa only for work and not for indefinite residency. If the work visa was defacto a permanent residency visa, no one would give it and no one would get it.

What if there is a country which has had a strong influence over turning your country of origin into a place that is very difficult to live in?

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#63

Post by rileymat2 »

hsn915 wrote: post #40
inertiatic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your country owes you why?

You could argue that even your country doesn't owe you anything merely for existing. You have responsibilities, not just rights. But for the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming a person already has a country they belong to which does give them the right to stay. No other country owes you the right to stay. Singapore does not owe me the right to be there, let alone stay there. Each country is free to decide the r…

One thing that I would like to push back on the idea that “It is not a ‘human right’”.

A “human right” is a social term defined by the demands of the people living in that time collectively. There is no list we can check off, it is what people demand and can fight for.

By asserting the right they very well could be /creating/ it.

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#64

Post by suddenclarity »

AdamN wrote: post #19
hsn915 wrote: post #4

No country other than your country of origin owes you a right to stay. It's not inhumane or something to have visa only for work and not for indefinite residency. If the work visa was defacto a permanent residency visa, no one would give it and no one would get it.

Hopefully we can change that in the future - people have been displaced over the centuries (and worse) but what you're saying is such a 20th century phenomenon that I'd like to see us move forward to better structures.

How is it a 20th century phenomenon? In the past we had barely no movement in comparison with today and at least here you actually had to apply for permission to move away.

The whole welfare system is based on the requirement that it only applies to a selected few and adults today support the elderly so they can retire under the assumption that children will pay the adults for their retirement. If you open up the welfare system for 7 billion people that haven't contributed, it will all collapse.

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#65

Post by pshirshov »

oblio wrote: post #31

The US is super weird. It's the only place I know of that doesn't have a clear, fixed-time based, permanent residency program, without quotas. As an example, in all European countries that I know of, permanent residency works like this: - you need to fulfill some prerequisites (usually a civics course/test, a language course/test, no criminal record, be employed or in education) - then you need to be in the country f…

It's not "a few months" everywhere. E.g.in Ireland current processing time is about 19-24 months since the moment you've sent your application.

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#67

Post by edwcross »

oblio wrote: post #31

The US is super weird. It's the only place I know of that doesn't have a clear, fixed-time based, permanent residency program, without quotas. As an example, in all European countries that I know of, permanent residency works like this: - you need to fulfill some prerequisites (usually a civics course/test, a language course/test, no criminal record, be employed or in education) - then you need to be in the country f…

In theory, you are possibly right, but in practice, that is not always the case.

For instance, in France, currently some departments have a fixed number of interview slots per month, meaning people either have to hack their way into finding an available slot (e.g. using scripts to refresh the website in the middle of the night and hope to wake up when a slot becomes available; good luck if you don't know how to hack the system yourself), or they have to pay scalpers to get an appointment.

Then, you get assigned a pre-interview slot, which can take as long as a year of waiting. If you are lucky and everything works out, in the pre-interview, you will get assigned an actual interview slot. Which will be communicated by letter. And which can take yet another year of waiting.

Then, when the actual interview takes place, they give you no definitive answer for almost a year. You only know if it worked out at the end of the process. Overall, the "be in the country for N years" can thus become "be in the country for N+3 years, while not being sure that the next step will actually work or you will be sent back to the beginning"; also, hope that no politicians change the system in the meantime, since all of this is unspecified, so that they can change the rules at any moment and there's no one to complain to.

Of course, your mileage may vary; if you are rich enough to live in Paris, you will probably get better treatment.

So, the US is definitely bad, but the real situation in some Europeans countries is not as good as it looks like.

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#68

Post by the_mar »

sokoloff wrote: post #20
butterNaN wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how feasible it would be, but the limit should be a runtime calculation depending on various factors (e.g. Median time it's taking to find a job nowadays). A static time limit, I feel is wrong for somethimg that is so fluctuating. Especially in current climate.

Extending the duration based on a poor job market would certainly be more accommodating to the people on H1-B visas who are between work, but it works against the stated purpose of the program. The H1-B program is designed* to provide labor force supplementation when no citizens/permanent residents can be found to fill a given position. In a prolonged recession, I'd expect the median time to find a job to go up subst…

I mean yes, but there should be some incentive to keep the H1B workers that are already in the country, and have been in american workforce for a few years.

Considering barriers to actually interviewing and assessing someone who is abroad, and how long it takes for someone to actually get a brand-new H1B and move to the US, 60 days just does not seem like incentive enough.

Besides what is the downside of allowing people to remain longer? They don’t have access to majority of benefits citizens get, yet they pay same (but also due to highly skilled job nature much higher taxes)?

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#69

Post by Archelaos »

sokoloff wrote: post #6

I sometimes wonder what the "right amount of time" for this would be. Surely 30 days is nowhere near enough. 60 days also feels like too little. 90 days is the typical tourist visa duration; that seems more reasonable as a minimum duration to me. Does it need to be 180 days? 364? I just don't know, but 60 seems too low.

Germany's visa for job search for professionals gives you up to 6 months to find a job. A foreigner who has completed an academic degree in Germany can get up to 18 months afterwards and a foreign researcher who has finished her or his research up to 9 months. For a vocational qualifications it is up to 12 months.[1]

These time limits are maxima, but are usually granted for people already living in Germany if their livelihood is secured and no other important aspects speak against it, such as a criminal record.

There is no time limit if a foreigner has an open-ended residence permit, which is possible after 5 years living in Germany (additional requirements apply).[2]

[1] § 20 AufenthG, see: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__20.html (in German)

[2] For mor infos see: https://www.bamf.de/EN/Themen/MigrationAufenthalt/Zuwanderer...

Re: 60 Days to Find a Job or Leave the Country

#70

Post by the_af »

mihaic wrote: post #7
inertiatic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your country owes you why?

That's the general social contract that most people have as their mental model: "If I pay my taxes and do my part, my children will get the standard benefits of citizenship". Honestly, I'm not sure what use you see from asking this question.

I understand your overall point and agree with it, but let me state that "paying my taxes" is such an American, money-centered worldview.

Your country owes you citizenship even if you don't pay your taxes. It may punish you in other ways, but not by taking away citizenship.

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